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I have the same issue and I believe it's a bug with blastchain support gem not just tremor rod since I had the same issue w/o it. Also the behavior is very random, sometimes the chain sequence stops after three detonations and sometimes I get the whole sequence.
Please fix GGG :-/
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Posted byIve0607#5653on Apr 19, 2021, 3:07:34 PM
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delta1994 wrote:
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Tim_GGG wrote:
I just tested this on the current patch and an older patch (3.13.2). I compared how well mines chain with Tremor Rod on each patch and there is no difference between the patches.
However there is a difference between how well mines chain, and this is mostly related to the cast time of the skill the mine uses. A mine placed with Tremor Rod won't rearm until it has cast its skill. This is particularly obvious if you link Portal to Blastchain Mine.
Pyroclast Mine, with a cast time of 0.18 seconds, has a much faster cast time compared to the other mine skills and most other skills in the game, such as Blazing Salvo, with a cast time of 0.7 seconds. This is why it chains better with Tremor Rod, the mines rearm much faster to be ready to chain again.
Somewhat unintuitively you can get cast speed to increase the speed at which your mines rearm with Tremor Rod, although from my testing you need quite a large amount to make a noticeable difference. For example, you'd need ~280% increased cast speed to lower the cast time of Blazing Salvo to 0.18 to match the cast time of Pyroclast Mine.
This is not the main issue. The main issue is that the sequence with for example Blazing Salvo breaks seemingly "randomly". I have made a clip for this where you can see the following: When you throw your mines, start the detonation sequence and then keep throwing traps to "refuel" the next chain it sometimes randomly just flat out stops detonating. Sometimes even after ONE detonated mine and sometimes it didnt even detonate a single mine when the detonate key was pressed. I took a short clip recreating this behaviour. I first noticed this when I was doing bossing. Sometimes I would absolutely melt Conq's and sometimes it would take forever because my detonation sequence kept breaking and breaking. I hope it is okay to post the streamable link in here if not I'm very sorry but this was the easiest way to show how ot recreate this. Here is the clip!: https://streamable.com/4n39r9
edit:I don't know exactly by which rules the game determines which mine to detonate next in the sequence but the only thing I can think of is that the mines that are supposed to be detonated get replaced with new mines being thrown and thus not continuing the sequence.
Your edit here is correct. The mine that is going to be the next one detonated in the sequence is being replaced by a newly thrown mine so it never detonates. I can test this with a much higher cap on the number of mines I can have out and the chain doesn't stop until the last mine is detonated if the mine cap is never reached.
This was the case last patch and I remember it being the case right after mines were reworked. Swift Assembly adds some more inconsistency with this happening in the case you showed in the video as sometimes you'll throw a large burst of mines at once, increasing the chance you replace the mine that was going to be detonated next.
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Posted byTori_GGGon Apr 19, 2021, 4:55:47 PMGrinding Gear Games
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walentaz wrote:
Dude, I'm using Purifying flame with dual wield wands and sequence breaks abruptly. Like I drop ~16 mines and so often just about half goes off. Dafuq is that? I played Glacial Cascade miner in 3.12 (also dual wield wands) and it for sure wasn't working like that. Dunno abou 3.13, because I didn't play that league at all.
Are you continuing to throw mines after starting the detonation or laying your mines and then detonating without throwing more? If it's the former then you're most likely encountering what delta1994 and other people in this thread have mentioned, your mines are being replaced before they can detonate, ending the chain.
If you chain is stopping without throwing more mines after detonation, then it would be very helpful if you could provide a video of this. I checked with the same setup you have, and the detonation sequence only stops early if I continue throwing mines after it starts.
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Posted byTori_GGGon Apr 19, 2021, 5:07:36 PMGrinding Gear Games
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Thuzad2 wrote:
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heishe wrote:
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redslugah wrote:
same here, 19 mines placed, 11 remain after rearmed and chain reaction ended. Tried with pyroclast on tremor rod and all mines triggered.
That's not a bug and that's not even bad. What's happening is that some mines rearmed before the first sequence ends, and are included in the original chain sequence. But that's very good for you since mines do more damage for detonated mine in the sequence and if you're saboteur you get more buffs from it as well. It does mean you need to place 7-8 mines for the second sequence before detonating it though.
No, it's definitely a bug and it's definitely bad. It's not that all 19 detonate followed by 8 more re-detonating before the sequence ends.
It seems to be an issue related to mines detonating twice. If you remove Tremor Rod, but allocate the Efficient Explosives node you get a 10% chance for a mine to detonate an additional time you get the same issue just greatly reduced. If you add Tremor Rod into the mix it really takes off and it will break your detonation sequence greatly reducing damage output.
Since Tim_GGG says it's related to casting speed I'm wondering if how detonating mine logic works is that it will randomly detonate one of your currently placed mines. After one is detonated it then picks a new mine to detonate. This works fine if all mines detonate once. However if a mine can detonate twice it can be re-selected to detonate before it has had time to re-arm (before 0.7 seconds has passed) and thus ends the detonation sequence.
Could that be correct? If it is then it's clearly a bug and should be fixed.
Interesting idea, but from what I can tell a mine that is going to be rearmed through Tremor Rod or Efficient Explosives can't be picked as the next mine to be detonated. This is easy to see with a really long cast time on the mine so no mines rearm before the chain is completely detonated. The entire chain always detonates in this case. I'm fairly certain most of these chain stops you're describing are due to mine replacement, but if you have a video demonstrating it happening without mine replacement then that would be very useful.
Something interesting I found from this however is mines with a longer cast time seem to be more likely to experience the chain stopping due to a mine being replaced.
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Posted byTori_GGGon Apr 19, 2021, 5:24:02 PMGrinding Gear Games
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teegeti wrote:
Tim thanks for looking into it but can you check into one more thing regarding the sequence breaking sometimes after 1-5 mines detonated if you throw max mines and hit the detonate button once you will see that after a few attempts you will get a sequence that is not consistent, most of us are having only 1-5 detonations after the first detonation. Thats the big issue because this inconsistency was not occuring in practice.
I'm fairly certain this is happening due to mines replacing the next mine that is going to be detonated in the sequence as mentioned above. However you don't mention throwing mines after detonation, so if that's the case a video of the behavior would be very nice as I can't reproduce the chain stopping early without throwing more mines after detonation.
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Posted byTori_GGGon Apr 19, 2021, 5:31:08 PMGrinding Gear Games
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Tim_GGG wrote:
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delta1994 wrote:
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Tim_GGG wrote:
I just tested this on the current patch and an older patch (3.13.2). I compared how well mines chain with Tremor Rod on each patch and there is no difference between the patches.
However there is a difference between how well mines chain, and this is mostly related to the cast time of the skill the mine uses. A mine placed with Tremor Rod won't rearm until it has cast its skill. This is particularly obvious if you link Portal to Blastchain Mine.
Pyroclast Mine, with a cast time of 0.18 seconds, has a much faster cast time compared to the other mine skills and most other skills in the game, such as Blazing Salvo, with a cast time of 0.7 seconds. This is why it chains better with Tremor Rod, the mines rearm much faster to be ready to chain again.
Somewhat unintuitively you can get cast speed to increase the speed at which your mines rearm with Tremor Rod, although from my testing you need quite a large amount to make a noticeable difference. For example, you'd need ~280% increased cast speed to lower the cast time of Blazing Salvo to 0.18 to match the cast time of Pyroclast Mine.
This is not the main issue. The main issue is that the sequence with for example Blazing Salvo breaks seemingly "randomly". I have made a clip for this where you can see the following: When you throw your mines, start the detonation sequence and then keep throwing traps to "refuel" the next chain it sometimes randomly just flat out stops detonating. Sometimes even after ONE detonated mine and sometimes it didnt even detonate a single mine when the detonate key was pressed. I took a short clip recreating this behaviour. I first noticed this when I was doing bossing. Sometimes I would absolutely melt Conq's and sometimes it would take forever because my detonation sequence kept breaking and breaking. I hope it is okay to post the streamable link in here if not I'm very sorry but this was the easiest way to show how ot recreate this. Here is the clip!: https://streamable.com/4n39r9
edit:I don't know exactly by which rules the game determines which mine to detonate next in the sequence but the only thing I can think of is that the mines that are supposed to be detonated get replaced with new mines being thrown and thus not continuing the sequence.
Your edit here is correct. The mine that is going to be the next one detonated in the sequence is being replaced by a newly thrown mine so it never detonates. I can test this with a much higher cap on the number of mines I can have out and the chain doesn't stop until the last mine is detonated if the mine cap is never reached.
This was the case last patch and I remember it being the case right after mines were reworked. Swift Assembly adds some more inconsistency with this happening in the case you showed in the video as sometimes you'll throw a large burst of mines at once, increasing the chance you replace the mine that was going to be detonated next.
First of all thank you for taking your time to reply to my post! What you say makes sense and confirms what I thought about myself but I still can't help but feel the inconsistencies when playing. In the video I "spammed" the mines to demonstrate what was happening but this also sometimes happens when not constantly spamming mines such as just throwing a few at a time after starting the initial sequence. If this is how its intended to work this means you essentially have to wait completely for the chain to run out before you can throw out any more mines which makes the build sadly feel infinitely more clunky. Whatever the case thank you for looking into this!
Last edited by Starrk457#2240 on Apr 19, 2021, 5:38:05 PM
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Posted byStarrk457#2240on Apr 19, 2021, 5:34:15 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_JhLJoUp28 hope it helps
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Tim_GGG wrote:
Interesting idea, but from what I can tell a mine that is going to be rearmed through Tremor Rod or Efficient Explosives can't be picked as the next mine to be detonated. This is easy to see with a really long cast time on the mine so no mines rearm before the chain is completely detonated. The entire chain always detonates in this case. I'm fairly certain most of these chain stops you're describing are due to mine replacement, but if you have a video demonstrating it happening without mine replacement then that would be very useful.
Something interesting I found from this however is mines with a longer cast time seem to be more likely to experience the chain stopping due to a mine being replaced.
https://streamable.com/7why3q this is with Tremor Rod and Efficient Explosives.
https://streamable.com/6pl1ic this is without either.
I'm not sure if there are supposed to be mines left on the top one? The issue with sequences stopping seems to be related to throwing out new mines as you start a sequence.
Is that something that can/will be fixed? Throwing out new mines cancelling sequences, I mean.
Last edited by Thuzad2#6708 on Apr 19, 2021, 5:58:09 PM
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Posted byThuzad2#6708on Apr 19, 2021, 5:55:14 PM
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Thuzad2 wrote:
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Tim_GGG wrote:
Interesting idea, but from what I can tell a mine that is going to be rearmed through Tremor Rod or Efficient Explosives can't be picked as the next mine to be detonated. This is easy to see with a really long cast time on the mine so no mines rearm before the chain is completely detonated. The entire chain always detonates in this case. I'm fairly certain most of these chain stops you're describing are due to mine replacement, but if you have a video demonstrating it happening without mine replacement then that would be very useful.
Something interesting I found from this however is mines with a longer cast time seem to be more likely to experience the chain stopping due to a mine being replaced.
https://streamable.com/7why3q this is with Tremor Rod and Efficient Explosives.
https://streamable.com/6pl1ic this is without either.
I'm not sure if there are supposed to be mines left on the top one? The issue with sequences stopping seems to be related to throwing out new mines as you start a sequence.
Is that something that can/will be fixed? Throwing out new mines cancelling sequences, I mean.
You need to pay attention to the phrase "Mines can be detonated an additional time" that Tremor rod has. That's why you're having mines left with tremor rod and not without. Tremor rod is detonating the initial set of mines AND THEN the second set to a certain extent.
Last edited by Starrk457#2240 on Apr 19, 2021, 6:13:17 PM
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Posted byStarrk457#2240on Apr 19, 2021, 6:13:05 PM
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YouGoSlav wrote:
sir can you view this video made just a couple days before league start,
showcasing how they used to work with full chains. now they dont work like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLvDvi8EcEI
Would you be able to give a time in the video where full chains are happening? Every time I watched mines be detonated in that video there were mine remaining that weren't detonated. You can see chains stopping very early at 4:08 and 4:27. The behavior in the video is consistent with how it currently works from what I can tell.
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delta1994 wrote:
First of all thank you for taking your time to reply to my post! What you say makes sense and confirms what I thought about myself but I still can't help but feel the inconsistencies when playing. In the video I "spammed" the mines to demonstrate what was happening but this also sometimes happens when not constantly spamming mines such as just throwing a few at a time after starting the initial sequence. If this is how its intended to work this means you essentially have to wait completely for the chain to run out before you can throw out any more mines which makes the build sadly feel infinitely more clunky. Whatever the case thank you for looking into this!
Yeah I'll admit it is a bit odd feeling when this happens. I remember from mine builds back in Blight that there was a sweet spot of how many mines under your cap you want to start detonating at.
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GooffyGoober69 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_JhLJoUp28 hope it helps
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Thuzad2 wrote:
https://streamable.com/7why3q this is with Tremor Rod and Efficient Explosives.
https://streamable.com/6pl1ic this is without either.
I'm not sure if there are supposed to be mines left on the top one? The issue with sequences stopping seems to be related to throwing out new mines as you start a sequence.
Is that something that can/will be fixed? Throwing out new mines cancelling sequences, I mean.
Both of these are due to the original behavior I mentioned. The mines aren't all rearming before the chain stops so some are leftover, undetonated.
As for if this behavior, or new mines cancelling sequences will be changed, I have brought all this feedback up with the team. However I can't say if the behavior will be changed or remain how it is now.
Last edited by Tori_GGG#0000 on Apr 19, 2021, 6:27:37 PM
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Posted byTori_GGGon Apr 19, 2021, 6:26:05 PMGrinding Gear Games
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