I Miss Boem...

I don't know. maybe you can ask her self. or W knows (her ehm... mentor(?) aka DoubleU).

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Exile009 wrote:

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tuasoafoch wrote:

Come to think of it, what happened to I_NO?

guess she's changed the account name back to her elder one - Apathy1. (has been quite active in this thread)

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Exile009 wrote:

Thanks. But why? And does that mean she's dropped that childish persona of hers?

no her behavior is the same. that linked thread was locked because of her

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Exxxiled665 wrote:

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Exile009 wrote:

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tuasoafoch wrote:

Come to think of it, what happened to I_NO?

guess she's changed the account name back to her elder one - Apathy1. (has been quite active in this thread)

"

Exile009 wrote:

Thanks. But why? And does that mean she's dropped that childish persona of hers?

no her behavior is the same. that linked thread was locked because of her

I see. Curious because I don't recall seeing any of her walrus posts in a while.

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Exxxiled665 wrote:

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Exile009 wrote:

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tuasoafoch wrote:

Come to think of it, what happened to I_NO?

guess she's changed the account name back to her elder one - Apathy1. (has been quite active in this thread)

"

Exile009 wrote:

Thanks. But why? And does that mean she's dropped that childish persona of hers?

no her behavior is the same. that linked thread was locked because of her

it seems your quotas got a bit confused didn't they?

'nuff said, i'll stop derailing the thread now, after all it's Boems one i guess.

Yeah that's her.

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I don't miss Boem -- we clashed pretty hard for years, esp after I had my little guild meltdown -- but I am 100% against permaban for anyone who uses the forum in a balanced way. And by that I mean like a normal fucking human being with good days and bad, ups and downs. You ban bots and one dimensional trolls whose posts add nothing, ever. Boem was never that. Bambi was never that. Sexcalibure was never that.

But like I said, there may well be behind the scenes stuff that absolutely warrants a ban. Not our business really.

What is our business, I think, is knowing with functional clarity what will and what won't see anyone else in a similar situation. At that GGG have not provided.

Too hard basket, I guess.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Yeah that's her.

---

I don't miss Boem -- we clashed pretty hard for years, esp after I had my little guild meltdown -- but I am 100% against permaban for anyone who uses the forum in a balanced way. And by that I mean like a normal fucking human being with good days and bad, ups and downs. You ban bots and one dimensional trolls whose posts add nothing, ever. Boem was never that. Bambi was never that. Sexcalibure was never that.

But like I said, there may well be behind the scenes stuff that absolutely warrants a ban. Not our business really.

What is our business, I think, is knowing with functional clarity what will and what won't see anyone else in a similar situation. At that GGG have not provided.

Too hard basket, I guess.

I'm pretty fine with perma probation for "hardened criminals" of any forum. People who repeatedly break the rules shouldn't be handle with kids gloves. It would be bizarre and callous to treat bots and trolls with extreme Cruelty for breaking the rules but treat others with extra lenciency for doing the same. In the court of law, Judges, juries, and law enforcers aren't supposed show favoritism for whomever they like. Or in the broader sense not punishing a transgressor is improper and inexcusable.

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awesome999 wrote:

In the court of law, Judges, juries, and law enforcers aren't supposed show favoritism for whomever they like.

Except he wasn't calling for favoritism. On the contrary, the change proposed by many here is very much consistent and applicable to all. Also, this isn't a court of law - not even close. That presumes there are societal structures in place to lend it legitimacy and accountability. The position of private online fora and their admins is more comparable to a feudal fiefdom than a modern court. Hell, even your words make that clear - where exactly is the "jury" here? And what's the distinction between the judges and the law enforcers (presumably referring to the police)? No, online fora like this are run by people who're empowered as judge, jury and executioner. There's a reason the actual justice system you're comparing this to isn't like that.

Also how do you know there's no favoritism shown the other way i.e. vendettas?

Lastly, what is the purpose of this forum? You call them "hardened criminals", which sounds like demonizing to me. What did they do wrong? If it was antagonism against other forum members, there's a Report button for that. Yet I'm fairly confident the majority of probations aren't a result of anyone being reported (yet another difference from the actual justice system - there's no need for a complaint to filed by any victims), but due to the mods themselves stepping in of their own volition. And a lot of the infarctions are for 'crimes' that a lot of people here may not object to in the first place. In other words, they're like the so-called 'victimless crimes' in the real world - and there's a reason why such 'crimes' are always controversial...

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Exile009 wrote:

Except he wasn't calling for favoritism. On the contrary, the change proposed by many here is very much consistent and applicable to all. Also, this isn't a court of law - not even close. That presumes there are societal structures in place to lend it legitimacy and accountability. The position of private online fora and their admins is more comparable to a feudal fiefdom than a modern court. Hell, even your words make that clear - where exactly is the "jury" here? And what's the distinction between the judges and the law enforcers (presumably referring to the police)? No, online fora like this are run by people who're empowered as judge, jury and executioner. There's a reason the actual justice system you're comparing this to isn't like that.

Also how do you know there's no favoritism shown the other way i.e. vendettas?

You are advocating removing perma probation or perma ban as a punishment for people breaking the rules. I disagree. Perma probation and Perma ban are permissible and consistent with the rules.

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Lastly, what is the purpose of this forum? You call them "hardened criminals", which sounds like demonizing to me. What did they do wrong? If it was antagonism against other forum members, there's a Report button for that. Yet I'm fairly confident the majority of probations aren't a result of anyone being reported (yet another difference from the actual justice system - there's no need for a complaint to filed by any victims), but due to the mods themselves stepping in of their own volition. And a lot of the infarctions are for 'crimes' that a lot of people here may not object to in the first place. In other words, they're like the so-called 'victimless crimes' in the real world - and there's a reason why such 'crimes' are always controversial...

An analogy of forum rule breakers as criminals. Demonizing them, probably. I don't think speech crimes are victimless crimes. Speeches that has influences has positive and negative effects. In political philosophy, certain speeches are deem hurtful but necessary and form the backbone of certain democracy and free speech philosophy. Not everyone agree to them. If these 'crimes' are always controversial, punishing these rule breakers severely wouldn't be anything unusual or surprising. Not everyone share that viewpoint of unrestricted and unimpeded speeches and People disagree more often than they agree.

You didn't really address most of what I said in my first paragraph, just repeated your disagreement and left it at that. Ah well...

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awesome999 wrote:

"

Lastly, what is the purpose of this forum? You call them "hardened criminals", which sounds like demonizing to me. What did they do wrong? If it was antagonism against other forum members, there's a Report button for that. Yet I'm fairly confident the majority of probations aren't a result of anyone being reported (yet another difference from the actual justice system - there's no need for a complaint to filed by any victims), but due to the mods themselves stepping in of their own volition. And a lot of the infarctions are for 'crimes' that a lot of people here may not object to in the first place. In other words, they're like the so-called 'victimless crimes' in the real world - and there's a reason why such 'crimes' are always controversial...

An analogy of forum rule breakers as criminals. Demonizing them, probably. I don't think speech crimes are victimless crimes. Speeches that has influences has positive and negative effects. In political philosophy, certain speeches are deem hurtful but necessary and form the backbone of certain democracy and free speech philosophy. Not everyone agree to them. If these 'crimes' are always controversial, punishing these rule breakers severely wouldn't be anything unusual or surprising. Not everyone share that viewpoint of unrestricted and unimpeded speeches and People disagree more often than they agree.

ALL crimes here are speech crimes. GGG don't probate for RMT, they ban. When I say 'victimless crimes', I'm not referring merely to speech crimes in general, but the speech 'crimes' as punished here - which notably are NOT punishable outside this forum. I already acknowledged 'hurtful' speech when I mentioned the Report button that you can see right there beside every post on this forum. So what you're attacking is a strawman. No, even if you think hurtful speech shouldn't be allowed, that does not justify the mod regime here. That doesn't explain why people get probated for mentioning politics or religion - something for which there's NO disagreement, it is entirely legal and permitted in the real world (you brought up the real world analogies, I'm just continuing them by showing you how wrongheaded they are). The only reason that's a 'crime' is because GGG says so. That's why I said online fora are more feudal fiefdoms - if you want to bring up courts here, then let me remind you that courts uphold laws passed by legislatures composed of people's representatives (or even in some cases the people themselves). The metaphor just breaks down entirely - there is no similarity between the carefully constructed checks and balances of the real world justice system and the fast and flippant mechanisms used in online fora like this.

So the philosophy behind speech crimes is irrelevant here. Even if one were to accept that hurtful speech ought to be curtailed, it STILL doesn't justify how things are done on both this and other private fora. There has always been a mechanism for curtailing hurtful speech here - it's sitting right there under your name next to every post you and others make. The reason why so many ppl here are "hardened criminals" isn't because of their speech victims, but due to the third party people who're allowed to act as judge, jury & executioner.

Also, since you support permanent probation, let me remind you that there aren't any life imprisonments for speech crimes. Indeed most of the time speech crimes don't even face imprisonment at all, and certainly whatever sanction is dealt to those offenders tends to be of a temporary nature.

If you insist on bringing in real world metaphors, I can break them down with an even deeper dive into those very same metaphors. Because here's the hard truth - we don't govern the real world the way we do online fora, the latter are typically FAR more dictatorial.

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Exile009 wrote:

If you insist on bringing in real world metaphors, I can break them down with an even deeper dive into those very same metaphors. Because here's the hard truth - we don't govern the real world the way we do online fora, the latter are typically FAR more dictatorial.

People do get perm ban for lesser things on other forums. People do get throw in prison for speech crimes in real world, maybe not in your country. How you envision the world to be isn't how it is, it is diverse and different.

Legal and permitted doesn't mean everyone agree to it. Law are enacted by politicians or the majority votes. Controversial because there are always People who would disagree.

Perma probation isn't akin to life imprisonments. Perm probation can be circumvented if they really want to. It isn't as bad as you are portraiting it to be. It is beneficial for those who don't have any self restraint. If someone continue to repeatedly violate the rules, it show probation has little or no effect to curtail wrongful behaviours. If they continue rule breaking, Perma ban or probation is the obvious next step. If you think GGG would care about spending time and effort to deal with problematic and troublesome people, they don't. They are already too much hassle.

Corporations are dictatorial. This is a website run by a corporation. The internet is envision as something free and accessible, except the internet and the network is owned by corporation and cost them money. "Free" on the condition if you are the product.