Please Remove 10% Exp Loss on Death

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frostzor27 wrote:

Lol, that is funny and sadly so true. This is what happens when it is brought up many times and the vocal minority jump in and control the conversation to get everyone to play their way.

Here is another idea, GGG could have another game mode where there is loss of exp on death and then one where there is not an that solves all the problems. The only players against that are those that want everyone to play their way.

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IzaroPetMTX wrote:

We could throw dice after death. If you win, you get your lost experience back, if you lose, your character is removed along with all the mtx you bought, and your account is blocked and a tactical nuclear warhead is launched to your residence address

Peace,

-Boem-

Ouch, that would be rough but still another idea where there si a chance you loss the exp and one where you don't. No sure nuking a character would go over well.

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demon9675 wrote:

The 10% penalty is perfectly reasonable until you get to 90+ where I think it could start to decline by 1% per level or so. Maybe even level out at 5%.

This is a great idea and is what I am talking about because the loss of exp on death does not scale well at all. Leveling up to level 90 is not so bad, you die and can get the exp back in a reasonable amount of time. after 90 it is so disproportional it is not even funny.

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demon9675 wrote:

It’s very important to have a strong motive to improve your character, therefore the penalty must stay. But losing 8% at level 92 is still going to be just as strong a motive as losing 10%. And losing 5% at level 98 is going to be just as maddening as 10%; I really don’t think we’d suddenly see everyone stop investing in defense.

I like what you are thinking and you are on to something good. I am not sure about the motivation to increase my build because PoE is already so complicated and no one should have to be playing for 5 years to master it. So status quo will just drive new players away and you will be stuck with the same old population. I am actually trying to open GGGs eyes to understand this one mechanic is holding them back from growth.

But to your point I think the motivation is there regardless, because I am not going to beat the endgame bosses unless I improve.

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demon9675 wrote:

If it was like this from the beginning we’d still have seen all the same builds and behaviors, with maybe a few additional level 100 players (not that I care about that metric whatsoever).

Maybe that is part of the problem, when does the game really end? I have been trying to get to 100 just because the number is there and that is what I am supposed to do to win the game and beat all the bosses. If that is not the case, then that is a terrible game design and explains a lot of my and my friends frustration. Wow, I do not even want to go down that rabbit hole of how that is just bad game design to just have levels hanging out there to go for or not with zero meaning behind it.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

You are contradicting yourself OP. You say this is just an rng loot rpg where skill and learning shouldn't matter. But if this game is all about looting then why do you even care about the xp loss? You don't need level 100 to keep looting, in fact it doesn't matter at all what level you have unless you are one of those elitists.

Ok, this is clearing things up for me and the way you say it, you are spot on. If there is no real reason to reach level 100 and the game can be completed by doing all endgame content without it, then what is the point.

Flat out that is 100% terrible game design, I was thinking that I had to reach 100 to be able to defeat the end game content and the fact that I don't is unbelievably miss guiding the NEW players. Since that seems to be the case, then why have the extra levels, what is the point, there is zero added value to having them. Unbelievable, I thought I have seen it all in my forty-five plus years of gaming, but this tops the list. Here I thought GGG was the top dog in ARPG and now this makes me re-question everything, because this is just not a bad idea it is a terrible idea to have levels hanging out there that have no meaning to the game.

No wonder new players are not getting it and just rage quitting the game. It makes absolutely no sense. I know, I know but an example is in D3 there is the end of the game and a clear dividing line between max level and paragon levels that extend that game past the max level needed to complete the game. Players have a sense of closure and can then figure out if they want to continue with the race to the top. While yes it is D3, that is clear good game design.

BTW, thank you, your post has been the most helpful!!!!!!

Oh and just to be clear, even with a race to 100, there is still no added value for the exp loss on death. There still has been no one that can justify why it would be added value, because those with the skill and awesome build will still always get to 100 first no matter what. After someone earns something you should NEVER take it away. That is more poor game design.

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Raxsyn wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

You are contradicting yourself OP. You say this is just an rng loot rpg where skill and learning shouldn't matter. But if this game is all about looting then why do you even care about the xp loss? You don't need level 100 to keep looting, in fact it doesn't matter at all what level you have unless you are one of those elitists.

Ok, this is clearing things up for me and the way you say it, you are spot on. If there is no real reason to reach level 100 and the game can be completed by doing all endgame content without it, then what is the point.

Flat out that is 100% terrible game design, I was thinking that I had to reach 100 to be able to defeat the end game content and the fact that I don't is unbelievably miss guiding the NEW players. Since that seems to be the case, then why have the extra levels, what is the point, there is zero added value to having them. Unbelievable, I thought I have seen it all in my forty-five plus years of gaming, but this tops the list. Here I thought GGG was the top dog in ARPG and now this makes me re-question everything, because this is just not a bad idea it is a terrible idea to have levels hanging out there that have no meaning to the game.

No wonder new players are not getting it and just rage quitting the game. It makes absolutely no sense. I know, I know but an example is in D3 there is the end of the game and a clear dividing line between max level and paragon levels that extend that game past the max level needed to complete the game. Players have a sense of closure and can then figure out if they want to continue with the race to the top. While yes it is D3, that is clear good game design.

BTW, thank you, your post has been the most helpful!!!!!!

Oh and just to be clear, even with a race to 100, there is still no added value for the exp loss on death. There still has been no one that can justify why it would be added value, because those with the skill and awesome build will still always get to 100 first no matter what. After someone earns something you should NEVER take it away. That is more poor game design.

Yeah let's just remove all the prestige stuff from the game and let the veterans die out because F those! Let's just comfort new players who have no understanding of the game whatsoever and let them ramble on the forum.

To clarify: the sarcasm is validated by all the ignorance in this thread. Unbelievable for any vet player to read this.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I think there is massive connection between those 2 to be honest. The point of the death penalty is to show you that something is wrong with your char/gameplay and to force you to fix this issue. But if you have no way of finding out why you died in the first place then there is nothing to learn.

You have though :
- your eyes
- your monitor
- the community
- the information you already have the moment you die ( where you died, how your character is geared, etc ... )

Sure, a death recap would make a big difference in clarity ( although one could argue that experimentation isn't bad either ), but there isn't "nothing to learn" at the moment.

Still, the connection between the lack of death recap and the penalty on death is a fair point.

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C4Guy wrote:

How about this:

Every map only has one portal for each party member (but they don't vanish on death) and those players who die in a map lose all XP they've earned there.

In addition, the map resets in one of the following ways:

If nobody is left in the map,

- immediately after dying, monsters start respawning, starting from the entry point, spreading towards the rest of the map. All monsters that haven't died yet will regain their full health quickly.
- the portal goes back to the original entry point.
- only monsters that haven't been killed yet will give any XP or loot on the next try.
- anything that has been opened (breaches, abysses, strongboxes, etc.) will remain open.
- all dropped loot will vanish.

So, have monsters that just don't give loot and xp without any indication or anything ?
What an incentive to keep running the map !
/s
Seems like some arbitrary unnecessarily just for the sake of wanting to change an existiming ( and working ) system to me.

Plus some encounters balanced around having 6 tries would need to be completely rebalanced

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Raxsyn wrote:

It is supposed to be about fun and coming up with all these ways to play the game and not what the optimal build/skill/kill pattern is and if that is what I do then why should I be punished because I am just trying to play the game to have fun not have a PH D in it.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this game is about min maxing and finding ways to make your character works.

Which would partly be meaningless (and therefore less fun if fun at all past some point) if there would be no consequence to dying.

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Raxsyn wrote:

the issue is that GGG continues to listen to the VOCAL minority instead of thinking about what makes sense for their game.

No, this is absolutely untrue, GGG has been listening to the masses, making their game faster and dumber for couple of years now.
And this isn't cattering to the vocal community, it's cattering to the casual crowd and the reddit crying crowd.

In short, what you just said is completely baseless, a hollow and untrue statement.


Adjusting xp loss on death at lower level did exactly that : cattering to casual players, facilitating early game, and it's completely urelated to the need of having a softcap at higher level.
It does not mean that GGG is open to change it at higher level at all.

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Raxsyn wrote:

PoE is already so complicated and no one should have to be playing for 5 years to master it.

Should ? not one SHOULD ?
Who the hell are you ?
Nobody particularly, you have nothing to say what the game SHOULD be.
You come to a game, and start saying that it SHOULD be otherwise ?

Holy cow entitlement at its finest ..... or its worst depending on the perspective.

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Raxsyn wrote:

Ok, this is clearing things up for me and the way you say it, you are spot on. If there is no real reason to reach level 100 and the game can be completed by doing all endgame content without it, then what is the point.

To still have a goal in sight, even if it's freaking far away.

Infinite scaling without a goal gets boring, because there, there is really no point anymore after a while, and you loose incentive to play.
If you have an inaccessible goal ( not inaccessible for many anymore though ), there is still something that you can see at the horizon to have you keep walking.

It does not mean that YOU should be able to just get there without effort though, that's what you are failing to understand.

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Raxsyn wrote:

vocal minority

you are the vocal minority

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Raxsyn wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

You are contradicting yourself OP. You say this is just an rng loot rpg where skill and learning shouldn't matter. But if this game is all about looting then why do you even care about the xp loss? You don't need level 100 to keep looting, in fact it doesn't matter at all what level you have unless you are one of those elitists.

Ok, this is clearing things up for me and the way you say it, you are spot on. If there is no real reason to reach level 100 and the game can be completed by doing all endgame content without it, then what is the point.

Flat out that is 100% terrible game design, I was thinking that I had to reach 100 to be able to defeat the end game content and the fact that I don't is unbelievably miss guiding the NEW players. Since that seems to be the case, then why have the extra levels, what is the point, there is zero added value to having them. Unbelievable, I thought I have seen it all in my forty-five plus years of gaming, but this tops the list. Here I thought GGG was the top dog in ARPG and now this makes me re-question everything, because this is just not a bad idea it is a terrible idea to have levels hanging out there that have no meaning to the game.

No wonder new players are not getting it and just rage quitting the game. It makes absolutely no sense. I know, I know but an example is in D3 there is the end of the game and a clear dividing line between max level and paragon levels that extend that game past the max level needed to complete the game. Players have a sense of closure and can then figure out if they want to continue with the race to the top. While yes it is D3, that is clear good game design.

BTW, thank you, your post has been the most helpful!!!!!!

Oh and just to be clear, even with a race to 100, there is still no added value for the exp loss on death. There still has been no one that can justify why it would be added value, because those with the skill and awesome build will still always get to 100 first no matter what. After someone earns something you should NEVER take it away. That is more poor game design.

The reason for those extra levels is to have something for the players to strive for, to give them a goal to work towards. If you are content with grinding endlessly just for grindings sake that's good for you but most people like to have something to work towards. And on that end POE provides a lot of goals to go after, level 100 is just one of them. Compared to D3, which is the definition of grinding for grindings sake, this is much better game design in my opinion.

Honestly if you like the design of D3 more then go and play D3 and don't try to ruin POE for the people who like it the way it is and who don't want another D3 because D3 sucks ass as far as i am concerned. Not everyone is thinging the same way you do you know?

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Fruz wrote:

You have though :
- your eyes
- your monitor
- the community
- the information you already have the moment you die ( where you died, how your character is geared, etc ... )

Sure, a death recap would make a big difference in clarity ( although one could argue that experimentation isn't bad either ), but there isn't "nothing to learn" at the moment.

Still, the connection between the lack of death recap and the penalty on death is a fair point.

All those points are fairly useless for the most part. With all the visual clutter on the screen and the fact that there is no official information on monster abilities means that you can't even guess what happened most of the time. Even now, after more than a year of playing there is still so much shit that hit's hard as fuck where i don't even know what it is, how it works or where it's coming from. Delves especially.

By now most of my builds are tanky enough to not get 1 shot by it anymore, but i still lose 70-80% life out of the blue sometimes without having any clue why. I kinda got used to it but it's still frustrating as hell and this is actually one of the few points where i think D3 did a better job. I always had a very clear grasp of the situation back in my d3 days, the visibility was much better and monster abilities were clearly telegraphed both visually and by sound.

as i was saying some time ago, every balanced character building process represents a very tight consensus between damage output and defense capabilities.

if you are excluding the main motivation factor for players to invest into their character's defenses, this will immensely hurt the game, because there will be no reason to fear the difficult and challanging content and there will be no punishment for mistakes.

demanding to remove the death penalty is like telling "i dont want to start the game all over again after i've died in super mario". a punishment for wrong actions lies in the core of gaming process. and "wrong actions" are not only the certain combat mistake, its character building mistake too.

death penalty doesnt matter if you are not aiming for 90+, this levels are not obligatory for character development, its only a matter of challange, not progression. progression in path of exile in the very late game is gear, not levels. took 100 lvl in the past and i know exactly how frustrating is dying on very high levels.

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Fruz wrote:

So, have monsters that just don't give loot and xp without any indication or anything ?
What an incentive to keep running the map !
/s

Well, if someone wants to give up the map they're certainly free to do so, but this is also a consequence of the boss fights in T1-T15 maps being mostly too easy and not rewarding, neither loot- nor xp-wise.

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Fruz wrote:

Seems like some arbitrary unnecessarily just for the sake of wanting to change an existiming ( and working ) system to me.

We had this discussion before and I still don't see how this system is working at all. XP loss in PoE is just an occasional kick in the bollocks by the game caused by arbitrary one-shots, unlucky constellations and/or connection issues...

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Fruz wrote:

Plus some encounters balanced around having 6 tries would need to be completely rebalanced

All the map boss fights should be completely rebalanced regardless of any change to the XP loss on death system because they way it is now it's complete bullshit.

I suppose we'll see on Friday if there'll be any changes in that regard for 3.9 and/or 4.0.