Side by side graph showing player retention on Steam for the last 3 leagues

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Exile009 wrote:

They did a PvP focused patch many years ago. The players were quite vocal about not caring about PvP, and telling GGG not to focus on it. So they didn't. That attitude may have changed somewhat in the community by now, but I wouldn't bet on it. And probably GGG wouldn't either.

Yes I remember, I had played through that patch and it was a good first step in the right direction. But they abandoned it way too quickly before giving it a chance to draw in more pvp focused players and grow. Those vocal PvE only players were only complaining about not having enough pve content and they were the majority type of players playing the game at the time. The game was all about PvE before (and after) the PvP patch. So of course the community which was mainly PvE focused would complain, there was no time for a PvP community to grow and become part of the game. Also GGG was a lot smaller back then and they could only focus on a few things at once. So it was either PvP or PvE content, but I bet they could split the work up now if they wanted to. We have plenty of PvE content nowadays, just look at all the past league mechanics and content they have added since then and can reuse at anytime. If PvP had even a fraction of the amount of time/effort/work done to it as PvE did, it would have been substantially better by now.

This goes even more so for the Koreans who are hyper-competitive in e-sports and pc games. Just look at every korean arpg or mmorpg, they always have a built in emphasis/priority and updates on PvP. Good luck getting them to stick around to this game without a supported PvP system in place. (would like to see the player retention rate for the koreans actually)

PVP needs a huge rework, but I think it'll pay off - if Chris is serious about PoE standing toe-to-toe with D4 or D5 or D (n+1), this is likely going to be a huge part of that.

Most MMOs have PVP as the "final frontier" and the big retention centre. Players minmax and use POB and trade for gear that's incrementally better, pogger, etc. than the last BiS. They want to put it to the ultimate test - never mind uber elder, how would I beat me?

Scenario A: Player completes pretty much all content, farms a little bit, gets bored, leaves after 6 weeks.

Scenario B: Player stays after 6-week mark to participate in pvp ladders

Scenario C: Same as Scenario B, but instead of "battle of the 1-shots", pvp scaling and other types of handicapping/conditionals apply to make pvp actually interesting and fun.

Meanwhile, closer attention to pvp allows GGG to rework some end game content, to make it more challenging. Bosses with better AI, more agile and multilayered defenses, different kinds of map or delve zone mods, less reliance on just bloating stats or timed tests.

There's a very good reason why the boss carry and lab carry community almost always say "No HOGM". It's supposed to be "pvp for non-pvp dummies" but really it's just everything that makes current pvp unappealing.

The second problem with pvp is reward/incentive.

In a perfect world, players would stick with league until the end, participating in pvp ladders for the sheer honour of it.

This doesn't work IRL, even pvp-oriented MMOs still have to provide some incentives, rewards, prizes, trophies, etc. for participation AND for winning. Should the incentives be pvp-only? Should they have worth in pve (play to win)? Is the pvp arena and bystander chat so toxic and full of salt only the most lavish rewards could keep the queue populated?

Those are big questions but the answers need to point at games with healthy pvp or comp and acknowledge this is what retention looks like.

I have zero interest in playing PvP, but I think the game would improve a great deal if the devs put some time into it:

1) It would open up a market for picking up, crafting, and trading PvP-centric items. LLD and VLLD as well, ideally. This benefits everyone who isn't an SSF player, because it diversifies that which is marketable and therefore makes the economy more interesting. (It happened in D2 as well.)

2) It would incentivize better balancing of skill gems, thereby increasing build diversity. Importantly, this would increase the amount of meaningful choices players are able to make, which is arguably the entire point of any RPG, including ARPGs. (And also one of PoE's largest warts for the past few years.)

3) It would hone the devs' skills in creating challenging dynamics, as crunkatog just mentioned. Better defense interactions, fewer one-shot deaths, meaningful (yet fair) scaling.

It's unfortunate that these trends, graphs, and comparisons NEVER occur in even a remotely controlled environment.

GGG makes so many changes each league that there is no way to tell what brings people back. Sure the league mechanic encourages people to try the game again, but is it the sole reason people stay?

I know quite a chunk of my friend's list stopped playing because this is arguably the WORST PC performance league in a LONG time. Crashes well into a month into the season, random bugs, etc.

I would hate being GGG's data analyst because GGG is always shooting themselves in the foot by changing 1000 things at once.

Is this really a melee league or a cyclone league? How many people left because of nerfs to WoRB or whatever meta skills from last league? How many people quit because of poor performance? How many people quit because the league was actually not fun?

It's honestly impossible to isolate any real valuable information from analyzing player retention with so many pots being stirred at once.

professor douche says synthesis was better

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2586280

even no league > legion

There is a steam game rankings video that kind of depicts the league retention.
Sadly it only goes up to the end of 2018 but gives an idea how PoE has grown & how quick players quit a league if anyone want to have a watch.

Think PoE starts to make an appearance around august/september 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X46oWXucL4

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Xystre wrote:

I can play SSF and throw screenshots too.

Doesn't work that way - even on SSF you do see other players when you're inside a town.

the reason betrayal beat those other leagues for total players on the graph is because betrayal was an expansion, not just a league. It came with the completely revamped masters system with the new daily type quests on the atlas and the new unified crafting bench etc which gave people essentially a new endgame experience. There were new maps, blah blah. These expansions come with a much bigger marketing push that draws in players.


The league that lands with 4.0 will eclipse them all. It might be utter trash, it could be the worst league theyve ever made and it will beat all of these on this sort of graph cause it will come with massive base game changes and a huge marketing push.


You cant compare 3 month leagues to expansions.

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TheFrostmourne wrote:

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Xystre wrote:

I can play SSF and throw screenshots too.

Doesn't work that way - even on SSF you do see other players when you're inside a town.

it works in plenty of ways.

I can make HC on the lowest hour of the day where nobody plays and still will get screenshots..

I don't give two shits about player retention anymore, so long I'm enjoying the game.. roleplayers here can analyse what they got for breakfast in GGG HQ.

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freakydouche wrote:

professor douche says synthesis was better

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2586280

even no league > legion

Haha, this guy... this guy knows what's up.

The people who made you a professor must be very proud of their decision.