Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

TL;DR of the rest of the thread: me elaborating, others agreeing in some way, some disagreeing quite coherently, but eventually everyone accepting that if we're here and posting, for some reason or another we do care how Path of Exile will turn out.

And one person accusing us of being homosexuals as if this is still some sort of potent insult in this day and age... and doing so quite poorly.

I'm glad to see that Path of Exile has some appeal beyond the vets of Diablo, and that part of what attracts the old fans is precisely what attracts you, the new: freedom of character. Diablo 3 WILL deny you that. This is not Beta speculation, it's not something Blizzard will change at the last moment. The eleventh hour draws nigh and I would argue ALL major changes to Diablo 3 have been made and made public. They'll tweak, but that jaw-dropping skill rune system is gone for good.

The devs at GGG have stated they plan to implement even more active skills as the game moves into Open Beta and actual release.

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Tagek wrote:

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vidiotking wrote:

i've played both the DIII beta and the POE beta. I'm here to tell you, in this gamer's opinion, that POE is the true successor to DII.

DIII is like a theme park mmo, where ass POE/DII has more sandbox like qualities.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Sandbox? Every area in POE is closed off by a loading screen.. It's exactly the opposite of what diablo 2 was in that regard. I think diablo 3 might not be as open as d2 was, but you really can't say POE is sandbox-like at all.

I guess I was thinking about the character progression when i used the words "sandbox", not really the world itself.

Your character in DIII is on rails. Your character in POE is NOT on rails.

This make more sense?

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Tagek wrote:

^ Well aren't all eastereggs pointless?
They are meant to be fun. :)

Well, depends what your goals in a game are (the Bartle test is quite revealing in that respect). If you're after power, they're generally useless.
If you're the exploratory type, they can be pure awesomeness. It's a "Your Mileage May Vary" thing, because (as seen in WoW) too many of those easter-eggs and allusions -to the point where they are shoved in your face- might result in turning the very people away which they were "made for" in the first place.


That's why I reserve judgement on that "allusion to Zhar" thing: Might be very good, might be cringeworthy. Might be a subtle nod. Might be as subtle as a hammer (eh, let's make it an anvil) dropped.

And sure, we're a bit rubbing our own tummies here. But: The majority of the "gaming community" -if such a thing exists- is practically wetting their shirts in anticipation over Diablo 3. Over-all there are not that many people saying: "Huh, PoE, that's what I'm looking forward to". And in my mind, there should be. And, yes, I do take the message of "PoE? Give it a looksie!" out into the world.
To be completely honest, I'm baffled at the hype surrounding D3. I might be talking out of my behind here, but somehow I have the lingering suspicion that many people slavering for that game didn't play the first one at all.

But it still feels good to know that I'm not alone in being disappointed with the direction the Diablo series has taken, and at the same time hopeful that Path Of Exile will pick up that torch. Because I want games to challenge me, not give me a reach-around.


"Everything has been said already, just not by everyone."

*makes off with his [Kudos of the Stars] before the Hidden come and take it away*

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Avireyn wrote:

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Tagek wrote:

^ Well aren't all eastereggs pointless?
They are meant to be fun. :)

Well, depends what your goals in a game are (the Bartle test is quite revealing in that respect). If you're after power, they're generally useless.
If you're the exploratory type, they can be pure awesomeness. It's a "Your Mileage May Vary" thing, because (as seen in WoW) too many of those easter-eggs and allusions -to the point where they are shoved in your face- might result in turning the very people away which they were "made for" in the first place.


That's why I reserve judgement on that "allusion to Zhar" thing: Might be very good, might be cringeworthy. Might be a subtle nod. Might be as subtle as a hammer (eh, let's make it an anvil) dropped.

And sure, we're a bit rubbing our own tummies here. But: The majority of the "gaming community" -if such a thing exists- is practically wetting their shirts in anticipation over Diablo 3. Over-all there are not that many people saying: "Huh, PoE, that's what I'm looking forward to". And in my mind, there should be. And, yes, I do take the message of "PoE? Give it a looksie!" out into the world.
To be completely honest, I'm baffled at the hype surrounding D3. I might be talking out of my behind here, but somehow I have the lingering suspicion that many people slavering for that game didn't play the first one at all.

But it still feels good to know that I'm not alone in being disappointed with the direction the Diablo series has taken, and at the same time hopeful that Path Of Exile will pick up that torch. Because I want games to challenge me, not give me a reach-around.


"Everything has been said already, just not by everyone."

*makes off with his [Kudos of the Stars] before the Hidden come and take it away*

Well, when saying most people waiting for diablo 3 haven't played diablo 1 you are probably right.
I haven't, and I have no need for a game of that kind.
I want a fun, fast paced, FLUID hack and slash rpg.
That is what diablo 3 will give me. A lot of people forget how important the basics of the combat system are in making the combat feel right. POE for example is doing a pretty good job, but it's no diablo 2 (yet) and given the experience and budget diablo 3 has behind it, I think they'll have the fluidness and feel of the combat down perfectly.

I too am saddened by the absence of the skill tree and all it's possibilities, but I will still enjoy Diablo 3 and all it's wonderfull aspects regardless.
I'm not sure what you mean by challenge, but difficulty wise I am certain that D3 will be plenty challenging for everyone.

last friday, i bought diablo 2 gold, because i couldnt find my LoD-CD >.< also i still haven't a beta-key for PoE :/

now i really have to say, that PoE (what i've seen/heard/read) reminds me more of the good old diablo-lan-times than diablo 3. This is the reason why i prefere PoE.

I think diablo 3 and PoE are two really outstanding games, but the point is, that diablo 3 reminds me more of Torchlight (wich is also a good game, but no diablo at all).

PS: Sorry if my english sounds weird, but it's not my mother tongue and my last english lesson is so long ago. :D

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Tagek wrote:

Well, when saying most people waiting for diablo 3 haven't played diablo 1 you are probably right.
I haven't, and I have no need for a game of that kind.
I want a fun, fast paced, FLUID hack and slash rpg.
That is what diablo 3 will give me. A lot of people forget how important the basics of the combat system are in making the combat feel right. POE for example is doing a pretty good job, but it's no diablo 2 (yet) and given the experience and budget diablo 3 has behind it, I think they'll have the fluidness and feel of the combat down perfectly.

I too am saddened by the absence of the skill tree and all it's possibilities, but I will still enjoy Diablo 3 and all it's wonderfull aspects regardless.
I'm not sure what you mean by challenge, but difficulty wise I am certain that D3 will be plenty challenging for everyone.

I can appreciate this sentiment - we're simply looking for different things in a game.

In its core, the original Diablo wasn't mainly about hack-and-slash. Heh, if I remember correctly, it was slated to be a round-based tactical RPG until someone (brilliant) decided he wanted to see how it played without the pauses. That may be partially why it feels so tactical in certain areas: Run in, take one out, retreat to choke point etc.
Just hopping in, smashing around until everything is dead? Nope, such behaviour would have killed you even on the first level of the Cathedral (the introductory level with very weak monsters and no bosses).


What I mean by challenge: There are different kinds of challenge. To the one (most people I asked about it really) it's what WoW made so popular: Know your skills, have fast reaction times and know your enemies. It's basically "Duking it out".

But I'm talking about a different sort of challenge: The challenge for me to find solutions to problems instead of being presented those problems WITH their solution and merely acting it out (as is the case in WoW and most recent games "press X to drill into the skull of the Big Bad").
Did you know that enemy AI in the original Diablo was more advanced than in the second game? It decided how doggedly you were pursued, if monsters could open doors and even if monsters "stalked" you. If there were "Hidden" in a level, you'd develop the behaviour of advancing cautiously, slashing in front of you, beside you, behind you very fast. Because they'd just appear directly beside you out of thin air to claw you to shreds.
And such things, I want: To engage my mind and wits when playing, not just my reflexes.
Diablo did that with a bit of tactical gameplay (as said), but also with titbits of lore lying around ("Take heed and bear witness to the truths that lie herein...") and generally letting the player explore everything and piecing things together on their own.
This plays true to the dictum of "play, don't show" for video games: Generally it's better to not show the player what is happening but let them experience it as first-hand as possible.
Something Blizzard seems to have forgotten.



edit: Another thing about "play, don't show": The Warrior in Diablo started with both Short Sword and a Club.
Now, as in D II, blunt weapons are far superior against the Undead. But instead of just telling the player this "150% damage against Undead", they went the other way and let the player find out on their own by handing them the tool to find out. Though, to be fair, in the manual it states that obviously, swords and arrows are of limited use against skeletons.
In the same vein, they didn't tell you the resistances of monsters beforehand. Only after you slew a certain amount, you'd find out their resists (and hit points). But you could wise up yourself: If a monster didn't go into "Hit recovery" mode after being blasted with a spell, it was probably resistant to that element. Or your spell was ridiculously weak.

Alright, I see what you mean.

What I don't understand though is that POE offers none of the things you just described (yet).
It's not that hard, the enemies aren't really challenging beyond the fact that some of them just deal high damage per hit.
So what is it about POE that you like so much regarding diablo 1?

And at the whole 'finding out'-aspect:
I get that that might be fun with some things, but it's also problematic in other areas.
For example, blizzard themselves said that they didn't want
any things that are kind of unclear at first.
Why? Well, most people will resort to looking it up on wikipedia or some other website, and that's not very fun.
Very obvious things can work, like no hit reaction from monsters, but things like resistances are just unnecessary burdens that will only be enjoyed by 1% of the community.

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Tagek wrote:

Alright, I see what you mean.

What I don't understand though is that POE offers none of the things you just described (yet).
It's not that hard, the enemies aren't really challenging beyond the fact that some of them just deal high damage per hit.
So what is it about POE that you like so much regarding diablo 1?

On the one hand, the atmosphere. I liked Diablo for that bone-chilling gothic air alone.
PoE has this in many places.

All in all PoE's more action-y than Diablo (not a bad thing). But take the skeleton archers and casters (or Merveil's Daughters, or those Corsairs with Flicker Strike). You have to be quite careful (in higher difficulty settings) around them. I kill them by getting out of their line of sight and then picking them off one by one ->tactical.
Sometimes taking cover behind breakables saves me from some more arrows.
Then, mobs can not only chill you but freeze you (for extended periods if you haven't taken counter measures. my hardcore ranger fell victim to this @50).
Third: The plot is not served to you in sequences, but more or less through the actions you take. You discover the path to Merveil's Lair, for example.
Fourth: The skill tree gives you a lot of freedom, but it is perfectly doable to gimp your character up to a point where he isn't able to compete any more. And I like this.

True: There are thing that -for my taste- are still missing. But the over-all structure looks very promising.

Plus, PoE is still in Closed Beta, and I can see how the game is progressing. GGG has stated they want to increase difficulty over-all. They have stated they want to give mobs unique attack skills.



All in all, it's the over-all "feeling" of the game: PoE has the better prospects of becoming what I want (or at least come close) while Diablo III has taken a HUGE step away from "what I want from a game".
Oh, and in fact, I did write a few suggestions about random quests in PoE and so on in the Suggestions forum. It's something I really miss and that NO ARPG (I have played) since Diablo has had as a feature.


edit: And to your:

"

And at the whole 'finding out'-aspect:
I get that that might be fun with some things, but it's also problematic in other areas.
For example, blizzard themselves said that they didn't want
any things that are kind of unclear at first.
Why? Well, most people will resort to looking it up on wikipedia or some other website, and that's not very fun.
Very obvious things can work, like no hit reaction from monsters, but things like resistances are just unnecessary burdens that will only be enjoyed by 1% of the community.

And that's my problem with Blizzard. I'm an explorer at heart, but not very competitive. I like to find out, I don't like to only play for better gear and more shiny. I also like guessing things, piecing together, finding out the "game rules" (in order to succeed at defeating a boss, for instance) or the story.
I get why Blizzard removes that part of their game: It's too confusing for the people they market for. They want action.
But on the other hand, that "making everything clear" aspect is what robs me of my fun. Which again is why I don't hold D3 in high regard, but rather PoE.

Why do people keep making these threads =( yes D3 has been turned into a easy mode pile of crap that only the new age kids who like to headbutt a keyboard to win with 0 puzzles or other challenge or any kind will play, but thats their problem and unfortunately there is a LOT of those types of kids so it will most likely do well.

We should just be thankful theres still companies making games for gamers who enjoy a challenge instead of a film where they press a key now and then

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WarBarney wrote:

Why do people keep making these threads =( yes D3 has been turned into a easy mode pile of crap that only the new age kids who like to headbutt a keyboard to win with 0 puzzles or other challenge or any kind will play, but thats their problem and unfortunately there is a LOT of those types of kids so it will most likely do well.

We should just be thankful theres still companies making games for gamers who enjoy a challenge instead of a film where they press a key now and then

Well I wouldn't say it in those words, but that is exactly how I feel about the gaming industry in general (though there are happily some exceptions). I actually plan to start a game company when I finish university, and making games that are challenging with real choices is something I will insure I do. Takes a gamer to make games for gamers eh ;)