Kay's Summoner Memorial Page | New Guide is linked inside!

I am puzzled about a few things in this latest version:

Does the EVF Ele Hit work differently than the player skill? If so, I can maybe understand some of the gem choices. If it does not, how do Hatred and Melee Physical Support benefit EVF spectres? Hatred would only benefit the cold hit of Ele Hit and only the increased cold damage half not the phys as extra cold damage. Melee Phys support should give no benefit at all to EVF's Ele Hit since it isn't converted from phys, it's flat ele damage. What am I missing? Is EVF Ele Hit somehow converted phys unlike the skill gem? Am I misunderstanding how the player skill works?

(I see that PoB gives increased damage for them, but it doesn't make sense. PoB lists the EVF's Ele Hit as physical damage in the "calcs" section--that can't be correct--while the player skill only lists the single chosen element.)

Kayella, I have 2 questions <33

First:
Do you already have plans for the next patch 3.10 besides the spider build? Can you already estimate what will become of "Wand & Shield | EB & MoM" in 3.10?

Second:
Is the "spider build" more a fun build, or is it a serious competitor for "Wand & Shield | EB & MoM"?

Hi Kay,

Love the idea of self summoning spiders, I got the most completion ever running only spiders, the question is, would you level spectres(like your [3.9] Kay's Spectre Summoner) till Arakaali, feel like trying this out before league starts, I have had 3 weeks off POE and feel like starting something, and this could be fun

"

corpsehound wrote:

I am puzzled about a few things in this latest version:

Does the EVF Ele Hit work differently than the player skill? If so, I can maybe understand some of the gem choices. If it does not, how do Hatred and Melee Physical Support benefit EVF spectres? Hatred would only benefit the cold hit of Ele Hit and only the increased cold damage half not the phys as extra cold damage. Melee Phys support should give no benefit at all to EVF's Ele Hit since it isn't converted from phys, it's flat ele damage. What am I missing? Is EVF Ele Hit somehow converted phys unlike the skill gem? Am I misunderstanding how the player skill works?

(I see that PoB gives increased damage for them, but it doesn't make sense. PoB lists the EVF's Ele Hit as physical damage in the "calcs" section--that can't be correct--while the player skill only lists the single chosen element.)

You're right, PoB's DPS calculation is wrong.
Start a new build. Add Raise Spectre skil gem and nothing else. Add Enhanced Vaal Fallen.
Look at the calcs. It will show their damage as pure physical.
In the game, link Raise Spectre to Brutality (only deal phys damage). EVF will now do 0 damage.


I chose Hatred as the second aura because it will give the spiders more damage and helpful ailments and it will give more damage when the EVF use a cold attack. It won't give them any damage if they use fire or lightning, but there's no other useful aura.*

They don't use the player skill version. Enhanced Vaal Fallen are just better version of Vaal Fallen. They seem to use a similar Elemental Hit skill. It has a similar name to the old monster skill, but updated to do more damage in Incursion league. Maybe you can remember getting randomly 1 shot in temple.
https://poedb.tw/us/mon.php?n=Vaal+Fallen
https://poedb.tw/us/mon.php?n=Enhanced+Vaal+Fallen

We assume EVF Elemental Hit does physical conversion because they seem to do more damage with zone/map mods, but maybe that's wrong...

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/d7w94h/enhanced_vaal_fallen_plus_triad_grip/f15y5fh/

Not sure about the AOE because PoB is showing the wrong information. They seem to do aoe damage, but that could be from the melee rework that added a small aoe or it's from their leap slam. So, maybe Conc Effect is not useful and we should use Elemental Damage with Attacks.

So it's completely possible that the 6L I recommend is actually a 4L.


Maybe the best gem combination is actually:


If you put this gem combination into PoB (and take out Hatred aura), it shows EVF as only 1mil DPS because PoB thinks they do no elemental damage.


About Hatred aura. If EVF aren't converting from phys and don't have any base phys damage, the 25% phys gained as cold doesn't actually work. So the PoB numbers are way off. So they only get 18% more cold damage when they use a cold attack, so only 6% average more damage. That's not good for a 50% aura.

It would actually be better to drop Hatred completely and use Aspect of the Spider for 15% more damage, and Skitterbots for the 18% shock.


I'll try to test this out as soon as possible, but if anyone wants to test as well, it would be appreciated!

"

F3inkost wrote:

Kayella, I have 2 questions <33

First:
Do you already have plans for the next patch 3.10 besides the spider build? Can you already estimate what will become of "Wand & Shield | EB & MoM" in 3.10?

Second:
Is the "spider build" more a fun build, or is it a serious competitor for "Wand & Shield | EB & MoM"?

I'm currently working on a build update for 3.10.

A few leagues ago there was only one build with many custom options. In 3.8, I made a new high budget build around Pledge of Hands and the guide now has two different builds. But I want to take the guide back to one basic build and give people different custom options.

The basic build will be 'fresh league starter / solo self found'. Then, 'EB & MoM' and 'Spectre & Spiders' will be build options that people can choose or they can stick to the basic build. I'll also bring back the high budget 'PoH' build as a build option.

The passive tree will be 99% the same with about 5 passive points different.

I've also tested the build using Mana Guardian just in case Necromancer gets killed!

Spectre & Spiders is definitely a serious build!I used it to finish the league, and I'll be using it for 3.10.

"

mystoom wrote:

Hi Kay,

Love the idea of self summoning spiders, I got the most completion ever running only spiders, the question is, would you level spectres(like your [3.9] Kay's Spectre Summoner) till Arakaali, feel like trying this out before league starts, I have had 3 weeks off POE and feel like starting something, and this could be fun

This is exactly what I plan to do!

I'll start the build with pure spectres and save up for Arakaali's Dagger and then switch to Spectre & Spiders.

I think the spiders will work really well with the new mechanic and I hope they can self-sustain...

"

kayella wrote:

This is exactly what I plan to do!

I'll start the build with pure spectres and save up for Arakaali's Dagger and then switch to Spectre & Spiders.

I think the spiders will work really well with the new mechanic and I hope they can self-sustain...

From the videos we've been shown it looks like the delirium monsters corpses are dispersing into the air, so there would be no corpses to raise the spiders from

what damage vaal fallen deal?? POB is showing physical, but when i am in map reflect element damage, my spectre is dying?? ( drop hatred)

Thanks so much for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. I came across your build as I was researching a Champion Impale Spectre build I'm working on (self and spectre damage dealers). Your build is creative and shows the thought you put into it. Good work! I'll give it a whirl on my standard toon from Blight to see if I can come up with any answers about the best supports. I'm struggling to make the Champion effective without throwing a billion exalts at it. Stupid Raise Spectre level nerf! Made it so much more difficult to build spectres on anything other than a Necro due to Unnatural Strength bonus. I'm using Vendigos and Vic Charity + Nec Aegis to support their Flicker Strike. But, alas, no Vendigos in PoB. So test, test, test.

"

kayella wrote:

You're right, PoB's DPS calculation is wrong.

I chose Hatred as the second aura because it will give the spiders more damage and helpful ailments and it will give more damage when the EVF use a cold attack. It won't give them any damage if they use fire or lightning, but there's no other useful aura.*

Aspect of the Avian would be a clear and damage buff to all. Aspect of the Spider would be a defensive and damage buff to all.

If looking to also increase Commander of Darkness buffs: I think Dread Banner might be okay off/def for spiders and AG and defensively only for spectres. War Banner would be okay for spiders and AG.

Precision could be quite good here.

"

kayella wrote:

They don't use the player skill version. Enhanced Vaal Fallen are just better version of Vaal Fallen. They seem to use a similar Elemental Hit skill. It has a similar name to the old monster skill, but updated to do more damage in Incursion league. Maybe you can remember getting randomly 1 shot in temple.

Oh, yes! Can I ever. Still happens occasionally in Delve Vaal Outposts, to me at least.

"

kayella wrote:

We assume EVF Elemental Hit does physical conversion because they seem to do more damage with zone/map mods, but maybe that's wrong...

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/d7w94h/enhanced_vaal_fallen_plus_triad_grip/f15y5fh/

I found this thread on reddit the day after I posted you here. Some good info but still a lot of speculation--especially about AOE support, as you note for PoB.

"

kayella wrote:

...So, maybe Conc Effect is not useful and we should use Elemental Damage with Attacks.

So it's completely possible that the 6L I recommend is actually a 4L.

Maybe the best gem combination is actually:

If you put this gem combination into PoB (and take out Hatred aura), it shows EVF as only 1 mil DPS because PoB thinks they do no elemental damage.

I think your 2nd suggested gem combo will be superior damage. [I find ailments very useful, so I'd sub Conc (if it's working) or Melee Phys (if Conc isn't working).] We're probably going to have to ignore PoB at this point and test the EVF spectre support links directly, which can be really challenging. I'm thinking it may be easier to test if the supports are having any effect with a low level Raise Spectre skill gem and minimal tree allocation. On an end game setup, the spectres do so much damage and kill too fast to test the individual contribution of various supports.

"

kayella wrote:

About Hatred aura. ... That's not good for a 50% aura.

It would actually be better to drop Hatred completely and use Aspect of the Spider for 15% more damage, and Skitterbots for the 18% shock.

(And chill.) Yes, this would be much better, I think. Not sure if Aspect of Avian/Spider would be better. (Faster clear vs defensive value of Hinder.)

*Edit* (several hours later):
Instead of going to bed at a decent time, I did some testing with a single low level EVF spectre like I suggested above. I used a lvl 1 Raise Spectre skill gem w/o any support from other minions. (Only aura was Precision.) I tried out Pulverize, Melee Phys, Ele Damage, Multistrike, Ruthless, Conc AoE, Increased AoE, and Melee Splash. Deathmark was necessary 'cause, man, this dude was stupid. I used gems within a couple lvls/percentages of each other and swapped them around. On the same targets, Pulverize, Melee Phys, Ele Damage, Ruthless, Conc AoE all performed roughly the same. Unsurprisingly, Multistrike out performed them all. 4-5 hits with those supports compared to dead in 3 hits for Multistrike every time.

Though the damage increased, I noticed zero difference in Ele Hit AoE with Pulverize and Increased AoE separately and in combination. (Though the EVF Leap Slam AoE was quite a bit larger.) When I socketed Melee Splash, the difference in area was very noticeable. So this skill doesn't work like the player skill in more than one way. 1) It is clearly converted physical to elemental damage instead of flat added elemental. 2) It is a strike without the AoE explosion at the end. It does hit more than one enemy at a time but only when they are closely packed together. And like you, I think this is probably the swing of the weapon colliding with multiple hitboxes due to the melee changes a couple leagues back. (It is also possible that the explosion is tiny, like 1 unit or less, so the difference isn't noticeable under ad hoc testing.) Since Conc AoE and Pulverize both increased the damage by about the same amount as the other skills, I'd say EVF Ele Hit skill has the tag AoE even if there's no real blast like with the player skill.

GL and HF.

Sadly the sound effects volume and the minion placement management didn't fix my fps drop issues, I even made a str stacking CI BV chieftain to see if I can tank the die beams' damage while I can't move or do anything and no, it does more than 16k damage :D
I think I'll just sell my Sirus fights to someone who wants kill credit or something.