Where is the Labyrinth poll?

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j33bus wrote:

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Zaludoz wrote:

That list is primarily taken only from the Feedback and Suggestions forum, and a limited number taken from the replies in a dev-post about the Labyrinth. The Feedback and suggestions forum has a notoriously low history of traffic compared to "General Discussion" for instance.

In addition, those who really couldn't stand it simply quit the game, sometimes (probably most oof the time) without a word on the forums, instead leaving guilds and friendlists empty.

The outpouring of negative feedback in that Dev-post was quite refreshing, and made me wish all those people would post in the feedback section too. There were "many" people in posts in General Discussion and other areas, that are not on that list (since they're not on the list, there is no count of these people), so it's a fraction of the community that posts in Feedback and Suggestions, in favor of changing the Labyrinth in some way.

I guess they don't think this section gets read anyway, so why bother? Or they think the Devs will never change the labyrinth anyway, so why lose face within the community with complaints against content they don't like when all others think those who don't like it just find it too hard (when this is patently false).

An official poll (or series of polls), with the right question(s), would be beneficial, IMO.

I don't think you understand how collecting unsolicited feedback works. While feedback has low traffic, everyone knows it exists and knows that they could leave feedback, hence literally everyone is participating, even those who have quit.

With the power of Bayesian statistics we know that there is a correction factor of 25 to the number that was collected, because due to lots of study about one in twenty five people leave negative feedback for things. This leaves us with about 25,000 people who have ever held a negative opinion about the lab (which is the criteria for making the list) with the denominator being literally everyone who has ever played since the lab was introduced. This mean that barely anyone in the population has any negative opinions about the lab ever.

Even if I were to grant you all that (though you assume way too much), you do realize that 25k people is the same order of magnitude as the entire average Steam concurrent userbase, right? It might still be a minority, but it's hardly an insignificant fraction of players.

and yet this thread has 21 replies with around 50% actually laughing their .. of. the second half made by the exact same small group we all knew they will turn up

such issue. such wow.

edit: there are TWO similar threads so i confused them. oh well. point still stands

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

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SlippyCheeze wrote:

Spoiler

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swizz1e wrote:

Where is the poll for deleting the Labyrinth? I'd imagine it to look something like this:

Believe me, we are all well aware of exactly what you imagine that poll would look like.

In reality your absolutely best case is much more likely the current poll, pretty much an even split, decided more by the fact that people who want the change are going to poke their friends to vote than people happy with the status-quo.

Anyway, count me among the voices you are trying to silence here: I like the lab, I think it is a good mechanic, and I absolutely do not support the idea of removing it - just because you can't manage to get through it.

I'm surprised you take the OP literally, rather than seriously.

Many players want lab deleted as the sole existing gate for ascendancy, and not from the game itself. A fair number of players genuinely enjoy lab, so why screw it up for them?

I took their statements both literally and seriously, and I'm unclear why you think otherwise?

Anyway, to your point: I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to want the labyrinth removed as the gateway for ascendency classes. I certainly don't agree with them, but whatever, we can both have our opinions, and tell GGG why we think they are good. If GGG ultimately do make a change, and I don't like it, such is life. :)

Side note: I'd be down with replacing the lab with a similarly challenging mechanism to gate access to ascendency classes, but my general impression is that wouldn't be considered a suitable compromise is most cases - because the difficulty (eg: traps, boss fight, etc) is described as the problem.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

Its not a gate. Its a tax for builds that can't do it, and not a high one. Logically the only ones who want it mandatory are the ones charging people to do it for them.

I don't charge anyone to "do [the lab] for them", in part because I play exclusively SSF where it is literally impossible for me to do so.

I believe that a non-trivial challenge, which the lab currently provides, is valuable in unlocking the ascendency classes. It provides an effective way to provide a risk, which makes the reward valuable; without that, ascendancies are much less a matter of planning and working for.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

It only punishes people with ethics who won't "legally cheat".

Making it mandatory just rewards cheaters and enablers.
Make the lab solo self found and anything with enchants untradable.

Given your assumption in the first statement, these would be logical conclusions, I guess ... though I feel like you have made a big leap in saying that getting a carry is "legally cheating", or that trading lab enchants in trade-enabled play is rewarding "cheaters and enablers".

Are you certain you can't better formulate a statement of why you think the lab is unhealthy for the game that doesn't rely on broadly unpleasant descriptions of people who disagree with you?

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sfbistimg wrote:

Tho I do hate that I'm forced to use 820 to be able to unlock access to uber lab. Since all you ever find yourself are the same trial over and over and over.

Again, I'm just going to point out that as a nothing-but-SSF player, I complete the uber-lab every league. I know that poor luck can be frustrating, and I'd certainly be happy to see a D3-style "bad luck protection" mechanism that made the missing trial more and more likely to show up every time you got a completed trial, though.

Your feedback is going to be much more effective at getting GGG to change if you structure it constructively, though, rather than as a statement that they (like I) will look at, and instantly dismiss from credibility because it is literally and obviously false.

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j33bus wrote:

I don't think you understand how collecting unsolicited feedback works. While feedback has low traffic, everyone knows it exists and knows that they could leave feedback, hence literally everyone is participating, even those who have quit.

With the power of Bayesian statistics we know that there is a correction factor of 25 to the number that was collected, because due to lots of study about one in twenty five people leave negative feedback for things. This leaves us with about 25,000 people who have ever held a negative opinion about the lab (which is the criteria for making the list) with the denominator being literally everyone who has ever played since the lab was introduced. This mean that barely anyone in the population has any negative opinions about the lab ever.

There's a few flaws in your analysis. First studies of 1 out of 25 complaints being voiced were for purchased goods. It seems pretty clear that a free item would have a much lower percentage.

If your analysis was correct then you could reasonably argue that there has never been more than 25,000 people that ever disliked the same item in PoE since there has not been any other disliked item that has seemed to approach the outpouring of dislike against labyrinth. Take the recent Bestiary capture thing as an example rather than your myopic tunnel vision view.

People aren't going to complain typically when they stop playing the game because most would see no purpose. Whereas the 1 in 25 statistics have people that are thinking they should get a refund on their purchase.

A better way of looking at the forum is as a sample of the total population whereas you are trying to argue that it IS the total population of the whole PoE base. edit: J33bus's implied assertion that there's a fluid boundary from the general population to making a post on the forum has been refuted anyway. For months I posted analysis of how many posts in the forum had been made by people being added to the list. Out of all the people I added, IIRC, there was only one person that it was their first post to forum. I can safely estimate that would be less than 2% of the names on the list. This totally blows J33bus's theory out of the water.

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sidtherat wrote:

and yet this thread has 21 replies with around 50% actually laughing their .. of. the second half made by the exact same small group we all knew they will turn up

such issue. such wow.

edit: there are TWO similar threads so i confused them. oh well. point still stands

Sidtherat why do keep insisting on making false statements in these threads?

In the second page I listed 2 new names added to the list plus I just decided to add a third one for this.

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EFil wrote:

there should be a lab pool, and finally end this discussion.
(i personally would be much happier if i didn't have to go through them as they are now. it just feels like a completely different game.)

So, three new names added to the list from just this one short thread.

Your original argument was that only 7 people ever complain about labyrinth. Now to be fair other of your ilk were saying similar things. So, Zaludoz made the list proving this wrong. Yet you seem to be the only one that still keeps repeating the same false assertion from that original bunch? Why is that?

I think some people just enjoy being toxic.

It's better to pity them than to be angry at them.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I think some people just enjoy being toxic.

It's better to pity them than to be angry at them.

no, they're on a personal mission but just hit the wrong forum.

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edgewood wrote:

LONG LIVE THE LAB I LOVE IT!

The trials are a pain in the ass because there is no reward but the lab itself is FUN and challenging and can be rewarding. You don't want to do the lab so be it buy a freaking carry they are a couple of c tops.

Yes the trials are annoying (thank the rng gods that they are only done once in standard forever) but with Lightning Warp most of the dangers are trivialized (skipped over easily, much better than leap slam). So while annoying to do every challenge league they are not too difficult. What is annoying is that the 3rd (merciless) and 4th (uber) lab runs have the highly annoying spike traps and stun/poison darts in the Izaro boss arena. The battle itself is ok difficulty but then the arena is effectively reduced to less than half usable area due to the f'ckin ground spikes. GGG, just get rid on them so Izaro kiting is fun.

The lab is very easy. Come on now.

Normal lab? My cat did it.
Cruel lab? My dog did it.
Merc lab? My wife did it (she plays PoE sometimes but not enough to be very good, sadly).

Uber lab? I had to do it.


Seriously though, why would they have a poll NOW about the lab? If they were going to, it would have been when it was new, surely anyone can see that? Whether they like this content or not it is common sense.

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kolyaboo wrote:

The lab is very easy. Come on now.

Normal lab? My cat did it.
Cruel lab? My dog did it.
Merc lab? My wife did it (she plays PoE sometimes but not enough to be very good, sadly).

Uber lab? I had to do it.


Seriously though, why would they have a poll NOW about the lab? If they were going to, it would have been when it was new, surely anyone can see that? Whether they like this content or not it is common sense.

Try SSF ;)

The first three are not hard, I do them every season, but the 4th? I can´t even unlock it, as I am always missing one trial! They should give us the first two Ascendancy points after we killed Kitava and the last six by doing normal, cruel and merc. Uber should be an optional lab, maybe with improved loot or enchants.

But to lock the Ascendancy behind a RNG gamble, is terribly and why we must get rid of it.