Labyrinth only good for ragequits - needs waypoints

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

As for the asinine attempt to say no one likes act 4 but we don't call for it's removal?

Argument ----> Point



You



No one is calling for removal, but again, how much harder is act 4 going to be, much less the later content, without the ascendant points? It's not a matter of you don't like it don't do it, it's a matter of being forced into content we hate to have a chance at the later acts.

All we want is a simple change, waypoints or checkpoints, end of list, so the hardcore one stupid mistake = 20 minutes gone factor is removed, like every other part of PoE, not an I win button or instant points. Just make the lab like the rest.

And here's where your argument falls flat.

"Adding waypoints ruins the lab."

Ok...how? See that's the thing you never mention in your posts.

If we leave traps exactly how they are, even though it's been proven they illogically penalize higher lvl players by percent damage.

If we leave Izzaro exactly how he is, with the ability to flatten unprepared and non "git gud" builds, or players who suck at dodging telegraphs, with the fact should you die his life resets, unlike say the act 4 bosses (which i thought was a touch odd to be honest)

If the ONLY change we make is just a check point at each plaza...

How does that ruin the lab for you? When all it does is make it more accessible for the playerbase as a whole, with less frustration due to mistakes?

Heck I'll even do you one better, make it so death means you dont get a skull enchant, or one point only, D3 this maze.

It's exactly the same for you regardless if you don't die, and it makes it so the lab can be more easily run for the playerbase as a whole. Where is the issue?

Or is the problem here exactly that which has been voiced, people like you don't want the lab to be easier because it does impact your electronic ... ahem ... "Bragging" rights, or your income from the goods inside?

For the point about "Well I don't like Act 4 so blah blah blah." I'll just say this.

This thread is discussing waypoints or checkpoints in labyrinth. If you don't like Act 4 then go make a thread about that or post in another thread about that. It is totally irrelevant and off topic in this thread.

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Turtledove wrote:

For the point about "Well I don't like Act 4 so blah blah blah." I'll just say this.

This thread is discussing waypoints or checkpoints in labyrinth. If you don't like Act 4 then go make a thread about that or post in another thread about that. It is totally irrelevant and off topic in this thread.

From another perspective, what kind of logic is it to argue that because I choose not to do something, you shouldn't either?

Who gave anybody making this kind of declaration that authority? GGG sure as hell did not, as that's not anywhere in the forum rules. And, if GGG tried to codify something like that as a forum rule then they'd be pilloried for it, probably by some of the very same posters making this kind of argument about lab.

And yet, when some random poster shows up and makes this kind of claim, somehow everybody else is supposed to take what they're saying seriously.

This kind of odd sense of entitlement about how one's own choices should dictate what others are ethically permitted to do also sets aside the intensity of the response. Act 4 is ARPG gameplay which isn't the highlight of POE for a lot of players (myself included, as it's the least interesting act in the game for me as well). But, lab is probably the most widely hated part of the game and straight up ragequit material for loads of players.

It seems a bit off to say I don't complain about my thumb being a bit sore, so you shouldn't complain about your throbbing broken arm.

Like, way off.

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

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Both fixed-damage traps and checkpoints would, for me, be a nerf to the content, and make it less interesting.

Lets say what's actually being said here.

"How dare someone ruin how I think the lab should be and the way I like it. They should have to always play the way I like to not ruin my fun even if the lab ruins their fun!"

Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy here Char?

Not really. I vote for keeping the lab as it is, because I like it that way. Also, everyone does that. People have argued for maps dropping more. For maps dropping less. For and against the T1 unique item drop buff. It's kind of natural to argue for what one likes. I mean, if voicing my own preferences is hypocrisy, then I guess I am hypocritical (is that the correct word?). But if that is not what you think should be done in this forum, you might as well just close the forum down.

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

But lets just put that aside for the other questions I'd like an answer too. Starting with the one from earlier I posed, that Telzen I will note still either won't or can't answer.

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How you you feel if you were playing one game, and suddenly had to be subjected to a totally different hardcore one, where completion of it was mandatory for progress in the other?

It's not that hard a question is it? You would think you or GGG could have an answer for it, and understand why a lot of us are frustrated with the fact -essential- content is gated behind this BS
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Well. That depends on what that content is like. If the content is like the lab, which is actually relatively close to the game content, then I am fine with it and I like it.

Let's look at other examples.

In Starcraft: Brood War, there are several indoor missions. Starcraft is essentially a game about building bases and an economy, in most missions and in all of the multiplayer. Those missions are fundamentally different. I never liked them much. I still liked the game, I just focused on the things that I liked.

In Path of Exile, a surprisingly large amount of the game revolves around trading rather than killing monsters. It is more essential than the ascendancies (actually, you can finish all game content both without ascendancies and without trading, but your character will be significantly weaker). Do I like that aspect? No, but I live with it, even though it has made me quit temporarily more than once already. Linking and coloring items, BTW, is also more different from killing monsters than the lab.

There are more examples. A lot of games have parts that are different from the rest, which can be both good and bad. In case of PoE and the lab, I think it is great.

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

No one is calling for removal, but again, how much harder is act 4 going to be, much less the later content, without the ascendant points? It's not a matter of you don't like it don't do it, it's a matter of being forced into content we hate to have a chance at the later acts.

Seriously? You cannot do Act4 without the Ascendancy points? Uhm...

... I usually don't do lab before A4. Better get the annoying stuff out of the way first.

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

All we want is a simple change, waypoints or checkpoints, end of list, so the hardcore one stupid mistake = 20 minutes gone factor is removed, like every other part of PoE, not an I win button or instant points. Just make the lab like the rest.

I.e. zergable. Most content is either a test of your skill or of your gear, with a lot of content focusing on gear checks. Lab leans towards the skill aspect more than any other part of the game, except for potentially some boss fights where you have to learn the mechanics to properly do them.

What I could see though, is unlimited re-entrances to the lab as long as you do not die. That would allow you to trade during lab runs, and would remove the problem of crashes. I would actually like to see that (portals allowed outside the Izaro boss room).

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

"Adding waypoints ruins the lab."

Ok...how? See that's the thing you never mention in your posts.

In the same way that softcore ruins the fun for players that prefer hardcore. It would remove the mini-HC-aspect of the lab, which I like a lot (I do not play HC though due to too many random oneshots and disconnect deaths).

BTW I lost the only HC character >70 that I ever had to a lab trial :P.

So to add another to the ragequit factor and why we need waypoints (Not to zerg, see the part where izzaro would reset on death)

Lab #2 Zero issue at all with this run. Izzaro 1 and 2 never even came close to killing me thanks to a buffed up build and learning PoE a bit more with some helpful advice from others.

Till fight #3...

so let me get this straight, you've already taken a boss where mobility is a must to survive him, where his hits can stunlock if you aren't careful. Where you can fake him out if you stand still just long enough to get him to swing...

AND YOU COVER THE ENTIRE ROOM IN SPEAR TRAPS AND DARTS? ARE YOU ****$&$#W&$#& KIDDING?!?!?!?

No, just no, I did not waste a morning on this run again just to be janked by a cheap ass broken percent based mechanic and a single izzaro hit and lose that entire run to this hardcore BULLSHIT!

Screw. The. Lab. That was beyond soul crushing, that was utterly insulting as a gamer, to put something so mechanic based in there and expect me to try and learn by mistake by having to run the entire thing to get back to it?

Dear GGG screw you and your idiotic game "design" The points aren't worth it, I'm not going back in there again.

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Dragonkat42 wrote:

So to add another to the ragequit factor and why we need waypoints (Not to zerg, see the part where izzaro would reset on death)

Lab #2 Zero issue at all with this run. Izzaro 1 and 2 never even came close to killing me thanks to a buffed up build and learning PoE a bit more with some helpful advice from others.

Till fight #3...

so let me get this straight, you've already taken a boss where mobility is a must to survive him, where his hits can stunlock if you aren't careful. Where you can fake him out if you stand still just long enough to get him to swing...

AND YOU COVER THE ENTIRE ROOM IN SPEAR TRAPS AND DARTS? ARE YOU ****$&$#W&$#& KIDDING?!?!?!?

No, just no, I did not waste a morning on this run again just to be janked by a cheap ass broken percent based mechanic and a single izzaro hit and lose that entire run to this hardcore BULLSHIT!

Screw. The. Lab. That was beyond soul crushing, that was utterly insulting as a gamer, to put something so mechanic based in there and expect me to try and learn by mistake by having to run the entire thing to get back to it?

Dear GGG screw you and your idiotic game "design" The points aren't worth it, I'm not going back in there again.

Labyrinth is loathsome crap not fun content that besmirches and insults GGG's good name.

Listen GGG, I really appreciate you reducing the loathsome crap content in 3.0. It has made the game playable to me. I also thank you for all the great improvements and enhancements to PoE since the labyrinth was released. Unfortunately, labyrinth is such loathsome content, the game is still not as good as it was before labyrinth was released. Please keep further labyrinth improvements on your list of needed improvements. The OP of this thread has many good suggestions. P.S. I completed labyrinth all four times with my character in Harbinger league. Do not consider that in any way, shape, or form some kind of endorsement or acceptance of this horrible crap content.

DragonKat42, here's my personal thoughts on Izaro. If Izaro was anywhere else besides labyrinth, he would be one of the better more fun bosses in the game. Because Izaro is in labyrinth, it makes him loathsome crap content because he's the main thing that causes one to have to repeat the loathsome crap not fun content all over again.

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In Starcraft: Brood War, there are several indoor missions. Starcraft is essentially a game about building bases and an economy, in most missions and in all of the multiplayer. Those missions are fundamentally different. I never liked them much. I still liked the game, I just focused on the things that I liked.

Just stop, this isn't even apples and oranges, it's apples and pineapples.

Brood War even in indoor missions still obeys the rules laid out.

Pop up turrets don't suddenly deal percent based damage per hit.
Special enemies don't have the ability to 1-2 shot you depending on hit
And Blizzard didn't disable the save game feature for indoor missions only (hint hint about the main ragequit inducing part here)

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In Path of Exile, a surprisingly large amount of the game revolves around trading rather than killing monsters. It is more essential than the ascendancies (actually, you can finish all game content both without ascendancies and without trading, but your character will be significantly weaker). Do I like that aspect? No, but I live with it, even though it has made me quit temporarily more than once already. Linking and coloring items, BTW, is also more different from killing monsters than the lab.

Again, an outside mechanic (trading for rares) is 100% different from an internal mechanic. the hardcore aspect of the lab where one death nullifies the entire run, and a mechanic where bonus content is gated behind it and you have no choice but to do it for the bonus, whereas trading is 100% optional.

As for linking and coloring, again that's gotten around by crafting and currency with enough effort / grind. And again is optional. The lab isn't and the hardcore factor is a turn off and ragequitter.

How hard is that to understand?

Just had a waypoint, boom, izzaro is fine, losing to a frigging spear trap after 20 minutes ISN'T if i have to restart every time.

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Grimbold wrote:

Oh my god another "lab sucks I quit" thread. Lab is great, it gives your character a great deal of power and power should come at cost...

Well, if you really gonna ragequit this game just because you are so bad that you are unable to finish normal lab - good riddance.

That.

Too many QQ kids flocking the game. Something actually challenging in a game (until you know better), god forbid!

I was surprised when first started playing, this is an rpg where are the traps? :)

Some chars are going to suck at it just like atziri, shaper or specific guardians but like those its often just learning. In legacy I did atziri 100 times for the challenge, first 3 attempts I didnt even get to her, killed her around attempt 6-8, deathless around 15, by 50-60 I could just about do it my sleep. This time I'm frost blades and atziri is pretty easy to kill yourself on the split stage reflect.

So this time its Izaro 100 times. I'd never killed him in uber myself always been carried. 69 kills down and I cant remember the last time I died. I've carried others, I now know Izaros mechanics and I know the trap sets so when to stop and go slow, when I can whirling blades or rely on my regen to go through them.

This is a lot of fun now with the darkshrines and the multiple keys and it adds some variety to the game. Really there is always plenty of people willing to carry you for only the cost of an offering.