Labyrinth only good for ragequits - needs waypoints

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Char1983 wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Your reply reads as if you're saying that I want salt on your food because I like salt on my food. Or like you're saying everybody should eat potatoes because I like potatoes.

No, I literally said that he can just do something else if he doesn't like the lab. Yes, he has to do the labs once per character, but I also have to be part of the trading simulator if I want to get to end-game and still have a life. I also have to get through Act4, which I never liked. Do I ask GGG to remove Act4? No.

And yes, if someone wants to destroy the concept of the lab, I will say something against that. Sorry that I have an opinion I like to voice, and sorry that that opinion is not yours.

What EnjoyTheJourney was referring to was your assertion that I wanted to hurt your fun by nerfing the labyrinth. That is not true. I have not argued that because I know there are people like you that enjoy the labyrinth just the way it is.

Labyrinth is loathsome bad content that besmirches and insults GGG's good name, in my opinion. The mistake was forcing everyone to play this loathsome content by locking/gating/requiring running labyrinth to get ascendancy points. There are many different solutions to this problem that do not require nerfing said loathsome content.

Just for completeness, here's the idea in the "big thread" about waypoints.

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4) Checkpoints/waypoints in every aspirant's trial plaza (the area with the stash). Portals opened inside the labyrinth can be joined from Sarn by other party members even if they didn't start the labyrinth from the beginning. Portals can only be opened in aspirant's trial areas. Players entering portals in that way forfeit every kind of reward (loot/treasure keys/enchantments) except ascendancy points. Players that open them but started the labyrinth from the beginning don't lose anything. Players that die or disconnect or simply get out of the labyrinth via a portal can choose to enter the labyrinth again and teleported to the most recent checkpoint/waypoint they activated or the portal they opened which will lead to the aspirants trial plaza. Doing so also forfeits every kind of reward except ascendancy points. Everything else remains the same. *Another way would be to spawn a tp (of course when Izaro is killed) near the ascendancy altar, that can be accessed by a player staying in the first lab room. That player can only gain ascendancy points and nothing else if he joins the tp.
-Regulator, *sucemab

An easy way to satisfy and solve many problems at once. First and more important people who for any reason disconnect or their game crashes can have the choice to at least somewhat continue their run to get the ascendancy points by forfeiting though every other reward. A fair trade that also refines the whole lab experience. Second, it gives the chance for people who cant/dont want/simply hate the labyrinth to get the ascendancy points and nothing else at all. Labyrinth runners now can sell their runs too so people can ascend. Since nothing else changes that can for the right price keep everyone happy.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216

If you look at the other ideas in there, you may notice that "nerfing" is NOT what those ideas are about.

After doing enough labs, include lab runs. I think teh solutions to lab issue with minimum work from GGG is

1) make traps do fixed damage, instead of % damage of your life, so people can have the option to outlevel them, like all other content. If you can outlevel other contents as a mean to progress, theer is no strong argument traps are exception. SO you either do lab when you think you can outsmart the traps, or shoud to do it later when you are tough, fair balance if you ask me.
This resolve main issue with the traps, without big effort of change from GGG.


2) have checkpoints, with condition that once you leave the lab for town or hideout or other location, you need to restart the lab. This resolute issue of time taken for the lab (for inexperience labbers) or people with short play time. They can return to where tehy left of if they are in the lab.

If you die, you restart from checkpoint, just like in every other places.

Edit:After writing this, & on the way to my afternoon coffee, a thought struck me. The biggest 'loser' are dedicated lab runners. Making the lab less hatred, means more people may farm lab, & this affect their economy.Price of enchanted gears woudl cost far less. COuld this be one reason many oppsoe to making lab changes to be more accessible?

Both fixed-damage traps and checkpoints would, for me, be a nerf to the content, and make it less interesting.

Also, how do fixed damage traps make things better? Unless the fixed damage is too low anyways, it will make the lab even harder for low-HP players.

Besides, in the time you've spent whining about the lab on the forums, you could easily have gotten 20-30 characters through all labyrinths. Normal and Cruel are super short now, and Uber Lab takes like 10 minutes if you use poelab.com and ignore the side areas / darkshrines / ...

Act4 takes longer.

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KiadawP wrote:

<Suggested lab changes here>

Edit:After writing this, & on the way to my afternoon coffee, a thought struck me. The biggest 'loser' are dedicated lab runners. Making the lab less hatred, means more people may farm lab, & this affect their economy.Price of enchanted gears woudl cost far less. COuld this be one reason many oppsoe to making lab changes to be more accessible?

You're right that lab runners post from time to time in threads complaining about lab to try to discourage both the people requesting changes and the changes themselves. They want the experience of being in lab to remain unpleasant for many, as that helps their in-game revenue flow.

But, a lot of the concern--probably the majority--comes from those who aren't lab runners, but who like to play a challenging game and are concerned that the steady stream of criticism and anger directed at lab may lead to a less challenging game. There has been some related history for this, as challenging bosses often receive lots of negative feedback from players and then later get nerfed. That's a key reason for some of the "you're the problem here, git gud" posts and the more open and direct "either you'll get what you want or I will, so I'm voting for me" vibe that you see from the small number of posters who keep popping up in threads that focus on complaining about lab.

With all the previous nerfs to the challenge level of content, I can empathize with being concerned about a fall-off in the challenge level; I've been here since open beta and I've (also) felt the disappointment of fighting quite a few bosses who used to be challenging, but who now pose less challenge than quite a few of the random rare mobs.

In the end, though, what's challenging in the game will evolve as the game evolves. Trying to retain a given level of challenge in any specific part of the game is a bit like trying to slow down the Mississippi River by putting a small rowboat in the waters where the Mississippi enters the Gulf of Mexico; the river will keep running regardless so the time spent isn't terribly effective, plus there's a risk that all the froth and waves associated with the effort will lessen their enjoyment of the moment.

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KiadawP wrote:

After doing enough labs, include lab runs. I think teh solutions to lab issue with minimum work from GGG is

1) make traps do fixed damage, instead of % damage of your life, so people can have the option to outlevel them, like all other content. If you can outlevel other contents as a mean to progress, theer is no strong argument traps are exception. SO you either do lab when you think you can outsmart the traps, or shoud to do it later when you are tough, fair balance if you ask me.
This resolve main issue with the traps, without big effort of change from GGG.


2) have checkpoints, with condition that once you leave the lab for town or hideout or other location, you need to restart the lab. This resolute issue of time taken for the lab (for inexperience labbers) or people with short play time. They can return to where tehy left of if they are in the lab.

If you die, you restart from checkpoint, just like in every other places.

Edit:After writing this, & on the way to my afternoon coffee, a thought struck me. The biggest 'loser' are dedicated lab runners. Making the lab less hatred, means more people may farm lab, & this affect their economy.Price of enchanted gears woudl cost far less. COuld this be one reason many oppsoe to making lab changes to be more accessible?

I think a summary of both of the proposals is for GGG to try to make the lab content more similar to the rest of the PoE content. Since the rest of the PoE content is great, I have to like this thought.

An interesting thing to me about this discussion is that giving feedback here generally gets lots of push back from people but when GGG makes similar changes along the lines of feedback then those same people that were pushing back seem to praise the GGG changes.

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Char1983 wrote:

Both fixed-damage traps and checkpoints would, for me, be a nerf to the content, and make it less interesting.

Also, how do fixed damage traps make things better? Unless the fixed damage is too low anyways, it will make the lab even harder for low-HP players.

Besides, in the time you've spent whining about the lab on the forums, you could easily have gotten 20-30 characters through all labyrinths. Normal and Cruel are super short now, and Uber Lab takes like 10 minutes if you use poelab.com and ignore the side areas / darkshrines / ...

Act4 takes longer.

The waypoint proposal that I copied above was not a nerf to lab in the general case. It was restricted to the point that people running lab for farming would not see any nerf. The only nerf would be for people running lab for the ascendancy points.

When a level 80 character goes into a level 33 area in an ARPG game like PoE, there should be almost no danger. This is the way the game works everywhere except in labyrinth. The fixed damage idea means that the current situation where a level 80 character goes into normal labyrinth with level 33 monsters, the chance of dying may be even higher than a lower level character or less well equipped character because health flasks do a lower percentage of healing when one has a bigger health pool. This is a very strange situation and I would argue even a ridiculous situation.

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Both fixed-damage traps and checkpoints would, for me, be a nerf to the content, and make it less interesting.

Lets say what's actually being said here.

"How dare someone ruin how I think the lab should be and the way I like it. They should have to always play the way I like to not ruin my fun even if the lab ruins their fun!"

Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy here Char?

But lets just put that aside for the other questions I'd like an answer too. Starting with the one from earlier I posed, that Telzen I will note still either won't or can't answer.

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How you you feel if you were playing one game, and suddenly had to be subjected to a totally different hardcore one, where completion of it was mandatory for progress in the other?

It's not that hard a question is it? You would think you or GGG could have an answer for it, and understand why a lot of us are frustrated with the fact -essential- content is gated behind this BS
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As for the asinine attempt to say no one likes act 4 but we don't call for it's removal?

Argument ----> Point



You



No one is calling for removal, but again, how much harder is act 4 going to be, much less the later content, without the ascendant points? It's not a matter of you don't like it don't do it, it's a matter of being forced into content we hate to have a chance at the later acts.

All we want is a simple change, waypoints or checkpoints, end of list, so the hardcore one stupid mistake = 20 minutes gone factor is removed, like every other part of PoE, not an I win button or instant points. Just make the lab like the rest.

And here's where your argument falls flat.

"Adding waypoints ruins the lab."

Ok...how? See that's the thing you never mention in your posts.

If we leave traps exactly how they are, even though it's been proven they illogically penalize higher lvl players by percent damage.

If we leave Izzaro exactly how he is, with the ability to flatten unprepared and non "git gud" builds, or players who suck at dodging telegraphs, with the fact should you die his life resets, unlike say the act 4 bosses (which i thought was a touch odd to be honest)

If the ONLY change we make is just a check point at each plaza...

How does that ruin the lab for you? When all it does is make it more accessible for the playerbase as a whole, with less frustration due to mistakes?

Heck I'll even do you one better, make it so death means you dont get a skull enchant, or one point only, D3 this maze.

It's exactly the same for you regardless if you don't die, and it makes it so the lab can be more easily run for the playerbase as a whole. Where is the issue?

Or is the problem here exactly that which has been voiced, people like you don't want the lab to be easier because it does impact your electronic ... ahem ... "Bragging" rights, or your income from the goods inside?

lab is the biggest shit

but who cares?

there is so much blah and no fun anymore

i stopped to play for now - and 30 other ppl i know

and i am ashamed that i bring them to poe

what a waste of time

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keeperofstars wrote:

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As others mention maybe we change it up to normal lab 3 points, cruel 3 points, merci 2 points, and you run uber for enchants and money.
helps solve the pain of dealing with brutal gauntlets that just are horrible for a wide range of builds, still leaves the challenge in for those that like it and want to be rewarded for doing it. Solves the scions ascendy points issue.

That would be cool. The fact that lab I&II were already nerfed so much shows that GGG realizes there was an issue. This would make the lab have even less enemies and still keep the challenging aspect.

I have some chars which can easily run the lab and with the buffs since 3.0, I enjoy running the uber lab. But on other chars (mainly EVA based or slow-moving) the lab really is a pain. And as the first 6 ASC points are mandatory that does indeed limit the build freedom of POE.

My main gripe with the lab is that I cannot trade in it. My current lab char likes the lab enough to fully explore it and thus a run takes 30-45 mins, depending on the layout and gauntlet types. During this time I cannot sell the stuff I'm busy cleaning out from my 100+ remove-only tabs. This means I feel I can only "afford" one lab run per day until I have finally cleaned up my stash. That really sucks.