Labyrinth only good for ragequits - needs waypoints

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keeperofstars wrote:

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Iceman6005 wrote:

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SudianX wrote:

Because of the limited range leap slam has it gave me my first death to traps. I clicked beyond it and my character walked into the trap instead... and this was shortly before the range was shortened.

LOL .... have you tried hitting SHIFT before leaping? you literally dont walk forward... Protip : Learn some mechanics about skills and interactions. you can very easily setup and time movement through the lab to take ZERO damage....

the problem i have is in general, some skills / builds can just walk right past traps, or use a teleport, while others get nearly 1 shotted by them.

There isn't any real balance there. my slayer BV can just stand on top of traps, while a zerker caster of mine, has to swap weapons, use lighting warp, and hope he doesn't get nicked by a trap or he loses 30% of his life instantly.

This in balance and everyone posting to use skills that void traps are are basically translating into traps suck, make sure you take a trap void skill with you, aka why have traps at all if the whole game's "git guud" mantra is to use a few skills to skip the traps anyways?

Just get rid of the damn things.

Or fix their damage mechanic.

you pointed out the solution switch weapons they gave you 2 weapon sets so use it

and if pressing 2 keys (switch weapon and then hold shift) is too much then you are supposed to die in traps

i really dont get the people here they complain and complain about to stuff which is so easy to avoid and fix but they do not listen
wtf do you guys want a full bot ? pess one key and it one hits shaper?

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

OP:

As you're seeing, there are a handful of "git gudders" who regularly make posts directed at those who (rightly) have complaints about the single most hated part of the game, without understanding the substance of what's being posted.

You quite clearly dislike the combination of a rogue dungeon with mechanics that the rest of the game doesn't have, which together form a gate to character progression (ie: you feel compelled to put up with it, to progress in the game). You're not frustrated as much by three character deaths per se as you are the reason they happened and the time wasted each time a death occurred.

If lab in POE feels alien and irritating to you, then you're far from alone in feeling that way.

I'm honestly not sure which amuses me more personally. The git gud crowd or the sillyness of people who think complaint = wants everything with a single click

I mean both miss the point of course in their own way. The former because they fail to see "gud" just = quicksilver flask or move skill. Which just highlights how variety in builds (the big draw for me) is meaningless if the only selection is cheese tactics. Highlighted even further by the poster who pointed out traps actually are easier with lower life and running naked because of the inane choice to base their damage off percents instead of damage per hit.

Again, it's cheese vs skill.

As for the latter, no. The only thing I want is to be able to feel that time invested is actually time spent on an accomplishment. I wish I could find it but there was a great article I read by gaming devs that highlighted how you keep players invested in a game and spending time is making sure they feel like it's worth it.

To laspe into RL a bit, i'm 36 now, i work full time, i get home at 11pm each night usually, and I have maybe at best 2-3 hours before i faceplant into a keyboard. Provided I'm not adulting. I don't have the time I used too and if I feel that time is wasted when I watch my investments go up in smoke from a one shot KO or a frame skip at the wrong moment (which PoE has done, if not in the Lab) put me back at square one...

See ragequit. It's not worth my time to beat my head against the wall, I'll go grind something in FF14 or farm a few more golds in D3 to see if i can get my necro past GR50.

And honestly all it would take from GGG is one simple change and I'd put up with the Lab all day long.

Checkpoints, like the rest of the damn game. I honestly fail to see why that is so hard a thing to do. Or why they didn't in the first place.

Oh but I forgot, this is where we get to the "But they wanted to make it like the 80's!" excuse.

To put it in current terms, so what you're saying is I'm being forced to play in what amounts to hardcore mode, even though I clearly do not see it anywhere in my choice of leagues?

But to get to the 80's part fully...

Hey kids? I was there, and let's remember something about 80's NES games. How many of us actually ever beat any of them? To this day I have yet to have beat the original super mario bros all the way through. And even that game had warp zones so you could get back to where you were... huh almost like a system in place to restart your progress should you die and have to restart...

And games like guardian legend and air fortress did have their passwords. Though AF still makes me twitch to this day. and GL was a prime example of the git gud era with some of it's more insane levels. which again, were broken down into bite sized chunks.


To use another example i've seen though for the hardcore side, raise your hand if you ever beat Contra without a certain up up down down coming into play.

Gradius?

Life force?

Buller?

Or a personal fav, if you died every time in quick man's level would you want to start back here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s_00b0stJU

And just for giggles how about we change the force beam layout every time? Hope you didn't go down the dead end. =p

Oh i know i know it's not hard. That's not the point. the point is it's tedious. Every death means endless repeats, which leads to grind, which leads to bored annoyed gamers, and again we're back to ragequit if we're endlessly repeating due to one simple mistake.

And a majority of the classics? Beating them was the reward in and of itself, not beating them for a specific reward or gating content behind success. Which is why I would like the one click wonder side of this argument to please consider this simple question.

How would you feel if you had just bought your SNES, plugged in super mario world, and got halfway through it to find a message saying "Please input the code given by the princess at the end of SMB 1 to continue."

Somehow I get the feeling that would have put a rather interesting spin on super contra as well.

To go more modern the tri ace classics like Star ocean or valkyrie profile or *twitch* resonance of fate have some of the craziest bonus dungeons out there, but do you need what's in them past bragging rights and awesome gear? Nope.

Do I need a slayer of terramorphus mod in BL2 to really enjoy the game or max out my build? No, the skill trees aren't dependent on the mod that drops. And aren't gated behind it.

Do I need to sit there and do the insanity of the anima weapon grind in FF14 for high end gear? Honestly my staff from palace of the dead still works just as well, gee almost as if they realized maybe we should give players -alternate- options of advancement to keep them interested.

I hope the point I'm trying to make is clear here. Though I suspect only turtledove and journey will understand.

The people posting "git gud" in response is very common in these forums. I'm convinced that this non-sequitur response (in this thread not necessarily in all cases) is usually because the person hasn't read much more than the thread title and a few sentences here and there. Generally done just to puff up their own egos a bit. I'm really not criticizing, maybe they need that and if it works for them then great. It's really pretty harmless.

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keeperofstars wrote:

I can run them all the time, it's just super freaking annoying. Especially when a dart hits you, then a whirl pillar nicks you and you die, right before you get to final izario. Voiding off 30 minutes of game play.

Want to know a super cool trick for lab, take off all of your gear, drop your life to about 2k, run the lab part, then put the gear back on for fighting izario.

that way when you get hit, any life potion will instant heal you, cause the trap damage is only doing a super small amount of damage. Unlike if you have 7k of life where it's takes 2 drinks to regain life back.

Overall it still stands though, the "lab" becomes use skills that void off traps, or if you can't then spend tons of time actually navigating the traps.

It's mainly uber that is the problem with how some of the trap combo's are setup.

It really just becomes who has a full set of instant heal potions, and a teleport skill.

I just find it odd that a "challenging" game mechanic is boiled down to using means to just void it off. The only challenge presented is how well your build can support the voiding part.

You call it a super cool trick for lab, i call it design disaster for an arpg.

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Turtledove wrote:

The people posting "git gud" in response is very common in these forums. I'm convinced that this non-sequitur response (in this thread not necessarily in all cases) is usually because the person hasn't read much more than the thread title and a few sentences here and there. Generally done just to puff up their own egos a bit. I'm really not criticizing, maybe they need that and if it works for them then great. It's really pretty harmless.

Well what are we supposed to say when something has already been nerfed into the ground and yet it is still too hard for them? I'm sorry but at some point you just have to realize that the game isn't the issue here.

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Telzen wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

The people posting "git gud" in response is very common in these forums. I'm convinced that this non-sequitur response (in this thread not necessarily in all cases) is usually because the person hasn't read much more than the thread title and a few sentences here and there. Generally done just to puff up their own egos a bit. I'm really not criticizing, maybe they need that and if it works for them then great. It's really pretty harmless.

Well what are we supposed to say when something has already been nerfed into the ground and yet it is still too hard for them? I'm sorry but at some point you just have to realize that the game isn't the issue here.

Labyrinth is loathsome not fun crap content that besmirches and insults GGG's good name. This has nothing to do with being content that is too hard. It has to do with content that is poorly designed making it tedious, frustrating, irritating, boring, and not fun.

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Telzen wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

The people posting "git gud" in response is very common in these forums. I'm convinced that this non-sequitur response (in this thread not necessarily in all cases) is usually because the person hasn't read much more than the thread title and a few sentences here and there. Generally done just to puff up their own egos a bit. I'm really not criticizing, maybe they need that and if it works for them then great. It's really pretty harmless.

Well what are we supposed to say when something has already been nerfed into the ground and yet it is still too hard for them? I'm sorry but at some point you just have to realize that the game isn't the issue here.

If the OP is new, then they're probably also eating ground slams from the Warden and Vaal, the rain from the final phase of Dominus, Torchoak's projectile clusterfuck, Piety's hose, and a variety of other things. That's pretty much normal and we all went through a phase like that.

The OP isn't complaining about any of those other experiences, though. The OP is very clear about what leads to ragequits and it's lab that does it.

I like the Izaro fight, setting aside the out-of-place, piece of shit fucking platform mini-game in which he's located. But, liking that fight doesn't make me believe he's an easy boss for newer players. His tells are hard to read for a newer player because he's a meld between two creatures (very unusual) and there are plenty of distractions in the aspirant's trials. Plus, the tutorials about trap gauntlets that GGG labels as "trials" teach nothing about Izaro's mechanics and how his buffs work. You pretty much need to look that up online. A lot of players like to just learn on the fly, though, so Izaro will remain a difficult boss for a longer period of time for newer players than most other bosses.

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Telzen wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

The people posting "git gud" in response is very common in these forums. I'm convinced that this non-sequitur response (in this thread not necessarily in all cases) is usually because the person hasn't read much more than the thread title and a few sentences here and there. Generally done just to puff up their own egos a bit. I'm really not criticizing, maybe they need that and if it works for them then great. It's really pretty harmless.

Well what are we supposed to say when something has already been nerfed into the ground and yet it is still too hard for them? I'm sorry but at some point you just have to realize that the game isn't the issue here.

Actually the game is the issue, specifically poorly thought out game design, and if you want something to say might I suggest starting with actually addressing the question in my previous post? Instead of cheesy barely hidden insults that still just boil down to git gud.

How you you feel if you were playing one game, and suddenly had to be subjected to a totally different hardcore one, where completion of it was mandatory for progress in the other?

It's not that hard a question is it? You would think you or GGG could have an answer for it, and understand why a lot of us are frustrated with the fact -essential- content is gated behind this BS

Speaking of, today's morning run. Actually destroyed Izzaro 1, feeling pretty good about this one finally. Work through the traps to #2 am standing next to the buff getting ready to smack it down.

...

And a line of skulls comes flying from an off screen Izzaro. 1 shot kill, dead before I could even react.

Welp, back to the start again, now please explain to me, not from your amazing god of the game perspective, since your skills are clearly so superior to us mere mortals, how the average gamer is supposed to react to that level of wtf?

Do you honestly think after a few repeats of this they are going to want to keep banging their heads against it, or will they find a new game?

And I will say this again, just give me a GOD. DAMN. CHECKPOINT! And I wouldn't be mad, I'd suck i up, learn from the mistake, and move on, but if moving on means I now have to spend another 20 minutes getting back there because of one cheese hit It's not worth my time.

Here's the other issue you dont seem to grasp, if content is so hard only a minor amount of a playerbase can complete it, then only a minor amount play your game long term before getting bored and move on. So GGG if you're out there reading this I would suggest you take that into consideration. I'm not exactly thrilled I basically just had a high level multi aura character have to handhold through the lab.

Oh and I'm glad he had move skills, as I watched him go past an array of traps that would have taken me probably a solid extra few minutes to get the pattern on, into a dead end. good thing he could warp back right?

So basically the Lab really can just go play a game of hide and go **** it self. It's a pointless unnecessary hardcore grind in a game where it doesn't belong. And the fact GGG basically has forced us into it for the higher acts is beyond insulting.

If all I do have to look forward too at the end is more annoying versions of it for an end (ha) "game" odds are PoE's playtime will go heavily down as well.

Kill-monster-get-loot game play, PoE is the best game out there available for that fun experience, IMHO. The labyrinth is not kill-monster-get-loot. Take Burning rage as an example. Wait for the floor to cool, run across floor, see lever, flip said stupid lever, wait for the floor to cool, run back to the exact same spot you were at, wait for the fucking floor to cool again, run across the same damn floor to the door. Repeat the same boring loathsome thing over and over. Boring, irritating, not fun crap that has nothing to do with kill-monster-get-loot game play. Then if one dies playing the fun part of labyrinth, Izaro, one must go through the whole loathsome content over again.

edit: Although I must congratulation GGG for the Burning Rage name, content that was designed to cause burning rage in their players.

They just need to flip traps to be back to flat damage like it was when first launched instead of percentage based. which they put in to counter 20k ES pools.

It's like well we put in a feature cause the whole game was running aorund with 20k Es, we decided to remove 20k ES but we kept the trap damage anyways, so our suggestion? take that two hander cycloner, take off all their gear and use flame dash to "deal" with traps.

It's not wait and navigate traps, its not, deal with traps, it's figure otu which movement skill voids traps off.

This creates two issues,

1.) you have to dumb your build down to a caster, to void off traps,

2.) you are a new player and don't realize that the best way to deal with lab is to just use a teleport skill. They should add it to the tutorial pages. Welcome to the lab, make sure you have flame dash, or lighting warp in an off hand weapon, congratz you win.

As far as izario, he is fine overall, I almost never have issues with him unless i'm stupid, aka thinking my 5k life char can take a full charge, full elemental buffed slam.

The traps are just stupid.