Labyrinth only good for ragequits - needs waypoints

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DankRafft wrote:

My attempt at lab improvements:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2003705

Hi DankRafft, when I saw your thread the other day, my reading was that it was about enchants. I don't normally add enchant threads to my thread list. Over 340 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 930 posters in support I know you do touch on some other issues in your OP though. If you were targeting more than the enchant mechanic I could add the thread to the list?

Agree, it is even more frustrating with the newest feature introduced in 3.0 called "Unexpected disconnect". Now you can loose all your lab progress every time you are trying to enter a new room.

I always felt, and now more than ever, that the issue with Labyrinth is not its design in itself - it tries to be something different from the main game and offers a different kind of challenge from regular locations. The issue was that the run itself was not rewarding enough (I saw literally no reason to do anything else than just rush straight through the locations to reach Izaro asap), and now this was mostly fixed by making the lower difficulties shorter, Reliquiaries easier to find and Silver Stashes actually rewarding.

The issue is that it's completely merciless in a bad way and instead of motivating the players to learn like everything else in the entire damn game, it only does a good job and discouraging players from playing it if they aren't experienced already.

If you run it the first time, you get no warning that you need to replay THE WHOLE THING on death, or that you will need to face a very powerful boss (you know, it's a labyrinth, not exactly obvious even if Izaro keeps talking with his deep manly voice throughout). If you get a lag or disconnect, it's instant ragequit material. Izaro is also not exactly easy to figure out, as there's a lot of different mechanics he can get that aren't very well explained, he can have different weapons determining his skills, and the effects don't even make it clear what damn type of damage he does, so you need to either read half the internet to prepare, or run the lab A LOT of times.

So basically: yes, I think a solution would be either waypoints, or actually a limited number of retries when you die (with Izaro's health reset back to before the fight). I think it would be reasonable to have less with each difficulty (e.g. 3 retries on Normal, 2 on Cruel, 1 on Merciless, 0 on Eternal).

Solves pretty much all issues and allows new players to learn, while keeping the spirit of the Lab that you need to be extra careful.

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keeperofstars wrote:

They just need to flip traps to be back to flat damage like it was when first launched instead of percentage based. which they put in to counter 20k ES pools.

It's like well we put in a feature cause the whole game was running aorund with 20k Es, we decided to remove 20k ES but we kept the trap damage anyways, so our suggestion? take that two hander cycloner, take off all their gear and use flame dash to "deal" with traps.

It's not wait and navigate traps, its not, deal with traps, it's figure otu which movement skill voids traps off.

This creates two issues,

1.) you have to dumb your build down to a caster, to void off traps,

2.) you are a new player and don't realize that the best way to deal with lab is to just use a teleport skill. They should add it to the tutorial pages. Welcome to the lab, make sure you have flame dash, or lighting warp in an off hand weapon, congratz you win.

As far as izario, he is fine overall, I almost never have issues with him unless i'm stupid, aka thinking my 5k life char can take a full charge, full elemental buffed slam.

The traps are just stupid.

Uh the traps were always percentage based. And its the only fair way to do it. Otherwise it would have to be balanced where it either does enough to hurt armor characters and thus rapes evasion, or is fine for evasion and a joke for armor.

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Turtledove wrote:

The people posting "git gud" in response is very common in these forums.

That is because we do not want to have the lab destroyed by making it too easy. You see, if things get too easy, they become unfun. For example, I could rund Blood Aqueduct. Or T8 maps. But neither of those is fun, because both poses zero challenge, so I don't.

The Labyrinth does pose a bit of a challenge, and is relatively affordable to run. It is even profitable. Thus, I think it is great content. It also has interesting mechanics that make it less brain-dead to run.

Seriously, if I can beat the Uber lab on an 5.7k health-based evasion-based Vaal Pact Deadeye with zero endurance charges, no staunching or basalt flasks, and no movement skill whatsoever, with Izaro being the only thing that can possibly kill me (besides crashes), then the balance cannot be off too far, given that I am not that much of a skilled player.

You just don't like the content. That is fine, don't run it. Or run it the one time you have to, buy a carry if needed. I also don't like specific parts of the game, I just avoid them as much as I can. But stop trying to destroy my fun.

Thanks.


@OP: Read up the mechanics, it isn't that hard (and it is important to do the mechanics right). Also use PoELab.com to see the layout. If it is Izaro that wrecks you, consider getting better gear or a few more levels.

I just find the entire thing tedious. It's not fun to do, but it's required. There are really no redeeming qualities to lab. You have to run lab to get your ascendancy points. If you don't run lab you are going to have a hard time competing at end-game, as it is balanced around players having an ascendancy. So, it's required to do, 4 times.

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Biytor wrote:

I just find the entire thing tedious. It's not fun to do, but it's required. There are really no redeeming qualities to lab. You have to run lab to get your ascendancy points. If you don't run lab you are going to have a hard time competing at end-game, as it is balanced around players having an ascendancy. So, it's required to do, 4 times.

Seconded. I get that many players like the challenge of lab, but unlike Shaper or Atziri, lab is required to progress. I almost wish it was easier to get ascendancy (like after the first Izaro battle) and if you want the loot and enchants, then you have to proceed through the grind to the end. I loathe the traps, more than any final Izaro one-shot.

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Char1983 wrote:

<Turtledove makes a point.>

<Char1983 types up a long non sequitur.>

Your reply reads as if you're saying that I want salt on your food because I like salt on my food. Or like you're saying everybody should eat potatoes because I like potatoes.

Think this through for a bit, instead of trying to tell the OP what to do. Which is really not your business, by the way.

Lab was recently nerfed because there has been an unending flow of criticism and anger directed at lab from streamers and players since it arrived. If you want lab as it is, then you should *want* those who dislike or hate lab to get another way to gain ascendancies.

If another way of gaining ascendancies is introduced, then that 700+ page thread about ways to change lab fades into the past, along with Turtle's ever-escalating count of the nearly 1,000 people who've posted about their disappointments / frustrations / dislike / hatred related to lab. Streamers stop making snide comments about lab because they, along with so many others who also find lab to be an irritating fucking borefest, have a way around running that widely disliked / hated content. The recent game review of POE labeling lab as "bad design" doesn't happen again in the future, either.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Your reply reads as if you're saying that I want salt on your food because I like salt on my food. Or like you're saying everybody should eat potatoes because I like potatoes.

No, I literally said that he can just do something else if he doesn't like the lab. Yes, he has to do the labs once per character, but I also have to be part of the trading simulator if I want to get to end-game and still have a life. I also have to get through Act4, which I never liked. Do I ask GGG to remove Act4? No.

And yes, if someone wants to destroy the concept of the lab, I will say something against that. Sorry that I have an opinion I like to voice, and sorry that that opinion is not yours.

If you read the lab wiki you see this message on every trap

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enough to kill the player after one second of full contact

Heaven forbid you have any small amount of dsync, lag, or frame stutter. I now a whole second is a lot of time, but it's not just the one trap the gauntlet part where you get nicked by one trap, and then nicked by a 2nd trap and end up dead.

This becomes a problem mainly for 2 side reasons, the lab is way to damn dark. the outdoor lab parts even when it's "inside" but still tied to "outside" brightness are usually pretty easy to deal with, you can see the traps well.

When it's tied to full indoor lighting, the traps are pretty easy to deal with, until you get nicked cause they do so much damage your light circle collapses to almost nothing.

Gets super annoying for people without HD, high end monitors. I play on the xbox on my 4k tv and lab is twice as easy.

Then add on aspect that traps and their hit area can be off putting, you get hit by them when you really shouldn't cause your character was rotated the wrong way and gets hit.

It's just super annoying.

As others mention maybe we change it up to normal lab 3 points, cruel 3 points, merci 2 points, and you run uber for enchants and money.

helps solve the pain of dealing with brutal gauntlets that just are horrible for a wide range of builds, still leaves the challenge in for those that like it and want to be rewarded for doing it. Solves the scions ascendy points issue.

aka fixes a ton of problems and should take about 10 minutes to code in.

Everyone stops bitching about lab, and just enjoys the game.
The 3rd points would really break the content and lets face it, during leveling, it's rare you need them unless you are bezerker, which getting a 3rd point early on doesn't affect.

So seems like a win win. Also prevents people from having to know to join chat 820 so they can get their trials.

Takes lab and makes it part of the game, much like shaper / atziri. things to go after if you choose, but not a make or break you.
Yet doesn't remove the ascendency lore / pieces out of the game.