A New Proposal for Addressing Labyrinth Hatred

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Zrevnur wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

But that does not change anything here : you are using a setup that cannot clear efficiently = you don't xp well, that's it.

If you see it that way then I dont know what your xp argumentation is about...

It's very simple : The lab does give very good xp, since the mob density is really high, and you can easily bash things on the way and a bit more, without loosing too much time, on normal setups.
The fact that you do not xp well in there isn't "the lab's fault", you made a choice by picking this setup = that's your bad, basically.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

But that does not change anything here : you are using a setup that cannot clear efficiently = you don't xp well, that's it.

If you see it that way then I dont know what your xp argumentation is about...

It's very simple : The lab does give very good xp, since the mob density is really high, and you can easily bash things on the way and a bit more, without loosing too much time, on normal setups.
The fact that you do not xp well in there isn't "the lab's fault", you made a choice by picking this setup = that's your bad, basically.

Ok. I understand your argument now. But this thread is about making the lab appeal to the lab haters. Everything bad in the lab can be 100% the "fault" of the lab hater. It wont change them hating the lab - maybe even the opposite. So even if its my "fault" that I dont get xp in the lab - I still see it as a negative of the lab. You are not going to "win over" (which as I understand is the intent of the thread) the haters by telling them that its their "fault".

Well the point of the thread is to try to influence GGG with actual constructive feedback, to improve the labyrinth, imho.

And I think that for example, since the xp is already pretty nice, boosting the global xp won't do very good.
However, if some of the side objectives were giving some xp boost, maybe people would consider going there more, spending time to find those.

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sidtherat wrote:

wouldnt say 'no' to that, with some minor changes

however, while current lab underlines general POE situation (speed-meta, min-maxing, efficient-or-bust) - it is still coherent with current POE. you use the same mind- and skill-set in lab as during map clears

i know it is a pretty dumb skill set, but it is what it is. GGG gave us clear-speed-meta with anything non-top irrelevant. we havent asked and certainly havent done that ourselves

so both the lab and maps feel the same - zoom zoom zoom, pew pew the easy stuff, avoid any kind of risk, fat loot. it-is-the-same!

if you hinder that WITHOUT curbing the general game speed - youll create a real 'separate experience'. something that stands out from general POE too much

this is my first major gripe with this change

second is what has only been briefly mentioned - disconnects etc. as long as logout crap is in the game and HC players have it literaly bound to their skill bar i want Lab to be one-time entry only

i hear the sad stories describing perils of bad internet and 3digit pings. i hear them. but sorry to say - world has to move on. multiplier always-connected games have requirements - one of them is working internet connection. constant 350 ping + random drops is not a connection. it is 'eventual connectivity' if you get the joke

not to mention that some of these stories are just lies masking chicken scripts usage

GGG made a great mistake balancing the game around cheats like logouts. people are so used to that that there wont be changes. but this not-so-smart decision bites them time and again..

Hmm Sorry but your argument about internet connectivity is total crap. I have a stable 35ish ms connection but somedays the latency is off the charts, I live in ct and connect to dc. Somedays for no apparent reasons the game spikes from my normal 35ish to 3-500ish and every once in a while it hits 1k. I have the best connection avaliable in my area 200mbs through comcast, now granted comcast blows but it beats dsl. Second Im running an i7 water cooled rig with enough power to not break a 30% load w/ poe.
Guess what?
Lab crashes every so often.
Latency spikes happen.
Your idea is to say FUCK you to anyone who experiences a net hiccup and have their progress ruined by it being a once and done mechanic?
Your making a big assumption about logout scripts, I don't use one nor have I ever.
Ohh and I suppose the Lab crash that used to happen if 2 people clicked on the door at the same time is supposed to screw both players as well?

Get over yourself and stop making generalized comments that are unfounded. Remember 90% of all facts on the internet are false according to "Abe Lincoln"

It would be a good idea make lab a bit more like maps: shorter, with limited number of portals and trials (yes allow ppl to die and returm to town a few times without having to restart)

I really like the loot explosion in the end of lab maybe more keys to this loot spread through the lab would be a good idea instead of more loot spread and you have to loose keys or cath them againg if you die

Raise the difficulty of monsters and more mini bosses IMO should happen in all areas/maps of the game so we'll have a smaler difficult spike on bosses

I completly agree with the increased randomization

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Fruz wrote:

Well the point of the thread is to try to influence GGG with actual constructive feedback, to improve the labyrinth, imho.

And I think that for example, since the xp is already pretty nice, boosting the global xp won't do very good.
However, if some of the side objectives were giving some xp boost, maybe people would consider going there more, spending time to find those.

I am not opposed to the side area xp. Its a good idea.

My take on "give more xp to Izaro" is based on my own experiences doing lab runs. If I do lab runs I end up with very little experience in comparison to mapping. So I see it as a negative for the lab.

Have to add here that thematically I also dont see why getting through trap gauntlets gives me "no xp". Whereas killing hapless mobs gives me xp and loot. And traps are a lot more dangerous than the mobs in the labyrinth. Thematically: xp ~= you get stronger by overcoming obstacles. Why doesnt this work for the lab trap gauntlets? Giving Izaro more xp would address this.

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True. I'd eat tons of vegetables to unlock desert though. But that meat is murder.

Everyone knows a good balanced diet is better then just eating too much of one thing. GGG says meat is on the menu, so either you eat it and get the rewards or you don't. Recently a guild member leveled a scion to 98 in the hll, but just died yesterday to phys reflect (probably because he was too tired and didn't read the mods properly) o yeah I forgot, he did not get any AC points on that character, but no no AC is completely necessary to play the game, its not just some massive power creep that hasn't been balanced for....o wait...it is just that.

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True. But keep in mind, regardless of what excuses people come up with to not eat meat - they don't really need an excuse.

Correct, you don't need an excuse, but GGG says meats on the menu, crying repetitively over the same thing doesn't do anything to sway GGG's opinion, it frankly just makes the people that are crying appear like the whinny bitches that some vegans truely are.

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I don't think getting AC points in the quickest fashion possible is what outspoken Lab haters want. It certainly isn't what I want. It doesn't need to be quick or easy - it just needs to be in another way than the one particular way that is possible now. This might be achieved by improving the Lab or by opening an alternative route to AC points.

If you've read the discussions on this topic you will understand that AC is paired with the lab, both in lore and in challenge. Making the lab more diffcuilt is a possibility, but creates a larger chance that more people will complain that its harder to gain the power. I think the lab should have been much harder then it is now and should not have been nerfed like it was in the past, but it was and I highly doubt GGG is going to spend a massive amount of time or resources in adjusting the lab. What you see is what you get and their stance has stayed consistent for over a year now.

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People hate the lab for many reasons. Players have to quit thinking that everyone is playing the game the same way they do or want the same things from the game that they want.

The problem with the lab is that there's no alternatives.

Theres no alternatives to leveling or progressing thru the story, you still have to do those things, why would there be alternatives to the lab to get AC points? Just because some people don't enjoy it? Some people don't enjoy leveling right now, some people don't enjoy various acts right now, its no fucking different in that regard then any other of the game content in terms of someone else not enjoying it.


We are playing the game GGG designs, not shaping the game with our feedback and mass complaints about soemthing we may or may not like. This isn't blizzard or some other company that just massively changes systems because people complain. If you don't like the lab enough for you to quit the whole game over it, then you are essentially just a big baby, because you aren't getting your way with a small piece of the overall puzzle.

People need to fucking get over themselves and understand that the game doesn't evolve around complaints and massive shitlist of "hur dur i did lab and disconnected or i did lab and died because i didnt see trap" or whatever stupid ass post that contain no actual useful feedback at all.

Its better for the game that players like that depart the community, hell everyone should be thanking GGG for this content that separates the true ARPG fans from the crybabies.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

People hate the lab for many reasons. Players have to quit thinking that everyone is playing the game the same way they do or want the same things from the game that they want.

The problem with the lab is that there's no alternatives.

This so much.

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goetzjam wrote:

We are playing the game GGG designs, not shaping the game with our feedback and mass complaints about soemthing we may or may not like. This isn't blizzard or some other company that just massively changes systems because people complain. If you don't like the lab enough for you to quit the whole game over it, then you are essentially just a big baby, because you aren't getting your way with a small piece of the overall puzzle.

People need to fucking get over themselves and understand that the game doesn't evolve around complaints and massive shitlist of "hur dur i did lab and disconnected or i did lab and died because i didnt see trap" or whatever stupid ass post that contain no actual useful feedback at all.

Its better for the game that players like that depart the community, hell everyone should be thanking GGG for this content that separates the true ARPG fans from the crybabies.

And this is a way of thinking that a large part of us will never consider right.

Some of us want to improve the game, and make it enjoyable for as many of the players as possible.

If GGG gave custom leagues, or a "wussy mode" and an "Uber Merciless" at least, where you either lose no EXP on death or a full level upon dying, so we could further tailor the experience, most of the complains regarding even "Labyrinth" as it is right now would have a smaller impact.

Introducing more "Hardcore" in a Softcore experience feels lackustre as long as other concerns regarding "Difficulty" and "Balance" are continuously neglected.

This content doesn't separate true ARPG fans from crybabies, because as long as there is a "right way" to abuse something, there will be people that exploit that to their advantage.

And a lot of the ideas are set to offer alternate options to improve the experience that PoE provides for everyone.

If something feels underwhelming, those of us that think that we could offer suggestions or plain feedback that can be used by GGG to improve the game that we all enjoy, makes this section of forum have threads that are worthy to read.

So no, we should always complain, but also offer arguments and accept counterarguments when needed.

And we should prise GGG way more, not only when they undertake some suggested actions, but also when we truly enjoy the content that PoE provides, be it lore, mechanics, items, interactions, barter etc.

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If GGG gave custom leagues, or a "wussy mode" and an "Uber Merciless" at least, where you either lose no EXP on death or a full level upon dying, so we could further tailor the experience, most of the complains regarding even "Labyrinth" as it is right now would have a smaller impact.

Custom leagues is different then trying to cater the game to appeal to the masses. In one case you pay paying to play the game in the fashion you want, within whatever guidelines they setup for custom leagues. Because they are custom leagues it doesn't matter really to me if you have one without the lab, because you are paying for the modified game. It doesn't really impact me. That isn't to say that all custom leagues would have no impact on me, I feel like custom leagues with modified (read increased drop rates) or large sandbox mode style ones could be problematic. But again, you are putting your money where your mouth is and voicing your concern with money, instead of just empty words, which many of the people that dislike the lab do. Re-stating the same useless shit over and over again, as if its somehow correct.

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Introducing more "Hardcore" in a Softcore experience feels lackustre as long as other concerns regarding "Difficulty" and "Balance" are continuously neglected.

Its sort of a taste, its not so much hardcore in softcore, as a specific challenge that needs to be overcame. The only hardcore thing really about the lab in a softcore environment is you lose something (other then time) in the uber lab, which is the offering.

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This content doesn't separate true ARPG fans from crybabies, because as long as there is a "right way" to abuse something, there will be people that exploit that to their advantage.

It separates the people that understand how poe used to function from how games from other companies work.

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And a lot of the ideas are set to offer alternate options to improve the experience that PoE provides for everyone.

People that dislike the lab and want AC points offered elsewhere do not care one bit about other users experiences, they just care about their own selfish desires. GGG knows this, the people that post know this, the only person that seems to not know this is you. Because there is a difference between saying "es builds take too much damage from traps in the lab" and getting adjusted and posting a massive list of changes to the lab that essentially shit on the whole ideas put forth by GGG.

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If something feels underwhelming, those of us that think that we could offer suggestions or plain feedback that can be used by GGG to improve the game that we all enjoy, makes this section of forum have threads that are worthy to read.

Again, there is a difference between giving feedback and moving on, and making it your life fucking goal (like some people here) to do anything they can to get it to change. Its not healthy. While we've went back in forth on stuff, its about the best discussion thats ever really happened in terms of the lab, but ultimately its a lot of changes you want and even the die hard hate the lab people are still skeptical of your massive changes. If they are, don't you think GGG is as well?

Lets say the issue is 4 out of 10 for GGG, if your suggestion changes it to a 3 out of 10 is it worth implementing all of those and perhaps causing people that like the status quo to become an issue then? Is it worth saying hey we fucked up this design, despite sharing our idea behind it? Perhaps they dont think they fucked up the design and want to stand by it, people like you then bash them for doing nothing to appeal to you specifically. This game was never about these sorts of things, it was about the bigger picture, the whole massive power creep for something a bit different.

I've said it before and will say it again, I would be ok if they removed the lab completely, if they took the AC points with it. But they won't do that, just as much as they won't stop making this game more casual and trying to appeal to more players. For this reason GGG no longer sees large supporter packs from me, for this reason GGG no longer gets 1 month+ of my dedication to this game. They are starting to fail to realize the special stuff that made this game so awesome, because almost everything that project pt stated is coming true. They are alienating old players in order to acquire new ones. Hopefully 3.0 changes this, but I doubt it...

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So no, we should always complain, but also offer arguments and accept counterarguments when needed.

You should always give your feedback, that is much different then complaining. Beating a dead horse is not beneficial. If something changes with the lab or AC points in such a way that makes it worth rediscussing then by all means bring it up again. But this rederic of constant fucking nagging at GGG about the lab is annoying and taking prime time away from staff that can be doing other things.