A New Proposal for Addressing Labyrinth Hatred

"

Zrevnur wrote:

Correct and its one of the few good side "quests". But Argus doesnt require hunting for silver key AND for silver door. So Argus is only ~50% effort of silver door Treasure key.
And I usually skip even Argus if not on the path.

You might not be farming efficiently the lab then ( or it could be more efficient, if you know exactly where Argus is ).
Unless you are only interested in enchants.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

Some xp bonuses might work on some notable monster maybe ?

"Giving" Izaro more xp wouldnt be wrong either. One of the main drawbacks of lab running is "no exp".

That is not true, if you run the lab not completely overleveling it, it gives a nice amount of xp, especially since the mob concentration is so high, it's very dense.

Uber lab does give xp unless you're like 91+ or so, it's T8 level after all.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

Are you guessing or do you have facts?

I know from experience, you can try if you're not convinced.
Now I have not tried on a "The Beast Fur Shawl" based build, but there is no way that you can outregen a sawblade.
If you are just running quickly through it it might not be lethal, however if you are walking with it, that's rip.
Feel free to proove me wrong if you can.

"

Fruz wrote:

You might not be farming efficiently the lab then ( or it could be more efficient, if you know exactly where Argus is ).
Unless you are only interested in enchants.

I probably wouldnt run it if there would be no enchantments and no Deaths Door. Treasure keys are not efficient for getting Deaths Door and close to useless for getting enchants (they can drop Offering). They are more important early in league and I may hunt for them then but later on they have lost a lot of value.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

Some xp bonuses might work on some notable monster maybe ?

"Giving" Izaro more xp wouldnt be wrong either. One of the main drawbacks of lab running is "no exp".

That is not true, if you run the lab not completely overleveling it, it gives a nice amount of xp, especially since the mob concentration is so high, it's very dense.

Uber lab does give xp unless you're like 91+ or so, it's T8 level after all.

My "no exp" is based on personal experience (I tested it actually) and consistent with what I have read from other people. And also consistent with the "just run through" recommendation generally given.
There are 2 main reasons for that.
1) The kind of build/gear setup which is good for dealing with traps and Izaro is usually bad for dealing with the mobs in an efficient manner. This probably doesnt apply to all builds/setups. But all lab runner setups which I have used (quite a few) are like that. They are simply inefficient at killing mobs.
2) I pick a good day for farming. The number of runs I do is based on how much time I invest on that day. If I delay per killing mobs I will end up with fewer runs on a good layout. So lab being a "daily" thing leads to it not making much sense for going out of the way to kill mobs even if that would be efficient in terms of XP.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

Are you guessing or do you have facts?

I know from experience, you can try if you're not convinced. Now I have not tried on a "The Beast Fur Shawl" based build

How much %regen and how many endurance charges did you have? You will need a lot. And Beast Fur is probably necessary. If you dont come close to the full setup it wont work obviously.

"

Fruz wrote:

If you are just running quickly through it it might not be lethal, however if you are walking with it, that's rip.

My point is that you would have to try to suicide in order to die with such a build. Accidentally walking with a trap will not rip you. Even on my current league life regen Pathfinder build/setup I can walk with trap without ripping as long as I have (24%) Basalt and all (8) endurance charges up. In practice I dont take noticable damage walking through trap areas even if I fumble and have to backtrack or sth. This setup is not idiot-proof though. Increased damage taken area is still dangerous. And flask + charges are necessary else I have to consider trap direction vs movement direction.

"

Fruz wrote:

Feel free to proove me wrong if you can.

Maybe I will try after league end. Have most of the gear and a suitable build in non-SSF (also from SSF play though).

If you ignore most mobs, then of course the xp isn't good .... but that isn't specific to the lab, it's true everywhere.
And I am not speaking of full clearing the areas, just shooting the monsters on sight, without spending too much time doing it.
I sometimes like wandering a bit too, that depends on the situation.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

My point is that you would have to try to suicide in order to die with such a build. Accidentally walking with a trap will not rip you. Even on my current league life regen Pathfinder build/setup I can walk with trap without ripping as long as I have (24%) Basalt and all (8) endurance charges up. In practice I dont take noticable damage walking through trap areas even if I fumble and have to backtrack or sth. This setup is not idiot-proof though. Increased damage taken area is still dangerous. And flask + charges are necessary else I have to consider trap direction vs movement direction.

If you take an optimized lab running setup, then you will be really resistant of course, but I have no troubles believing that some players could still rip with it.

Still, I hope that GGG will do something to reduce the "cheezing potential".

"

Fruz wrote:

without spending too much time doing it.

But that is the problem - at least for my lab runner setups: I simply cannot kill mobs fast with it. My current is somewhat efficient if there is a really large cluster (screen full including rare/magic) of mobs. But if I use something like single projectile chaos/poison ST (have used before) then this is futile. Even switching in GMP I still cant kill mobs fast enough to be worthwhile. Such a build can bring down Izaro fast but "cant kill" mobs.
There are probably lab runner builds for which it is efficient to kill mobs "on the way" but so far I havent made one. Removal of double dipping may change that though.

"

Fruz wrote:

If you take an optimized lab running setup, then you will be really resistant of course, but I have no troubles believing that some players could still rip with it.

Its always possible to "build a bigger idiot" than the most "idiot proof" build...

And while my current Pathfinder build is good for lab its not made/optimized for lab. I would pick at least one more endurance charge and more %regen on the tree if I would want a specialized lab runner build.

Forgot to mention: Leo reduced damage taken from DoT is important part of the "anti-lab CI ZO" build too. I dont have Leo so I have no access to it though.

You don't need a "lab runner" to run the lab.
A normal char runs the lab just fine, and is getting xp out of it without much troubles.

That's the thing, if you are taking a character that cannot clear anything quickly, then it is not the lab that does not give good experience, it's more your character that cannt xp efficiently, and that will be even more true outside of the lab, likely.

I forgot about the Leo mod tbh.

"

Fruz wrote:

You don't need a "lab runner" to run the lab.
A normal char runs the lab just fine, and is getting xp out of it without much troubles.

Lab is (due to traps) far too dangerous for me to run it (repeatedly for loot) with a normal char. There are people who say they can do it but I am not one of them - neither saying nor doing.

"

Fruz wrote:

That's the thing, if you are taking a character that cannot clear anything quickly, then it is not the lab that does not give good experience, it's more your character that cannt xp efficiently, and that will be even more true outside of the lab, likely.

I dont use the same skills/gear/setup in the lab as outside of the lab. Example: Pathfinder uses/used chaos/poison AWC (5link in coil) for lab with gear being focused on regen/charges/defenses. And EK totem in Soul Mantle (with Self Flagellation) for most mapping. Same build/passives, different gear, different skills used.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

and I do think there are plenty of hardcore PoE fans who would be willing to reevaluate their opinion of the Labyrinth if some of its perceived problems were addressed.

I think there are some no doubt, but the people that post daily or weekly about it just don't want to eat meat at all, they just want the dessert.

True. I'd eat tons of vegetables to unlock desert though. But that meat is murder.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

That itself is a thorny issue, because we don't all agree on where the problems lie. But here's my take, and I'll go out on a limb and predict that the following will ring true for a lot of PoE players:

Which is the problem indeed, adjusting various things may not matter at all, when you consider the vegans don't want to eat the meat, they will make any and all excuses possible to avoid it.

True. But keep in mind, regardless of what excuses people come up with to not eat meat - they don't really need an excuse.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

3. If you agree with me that ARPG content which encourages exploration is almost always going to be more fun than content which discourages exploration, then you'll also agree that encouraging exploration of the Labyrinth will make it more fun. So let's go back and look at the fun that we experience at the end of the Labyrinth:

It could make it more fun for various people, but does it make it more fun for those that just want to get the AC points? Considering the biggest contention in the topic is that people want to get the AC points in the quickest fashion possible, the issue becomes that the harder you make it to get the points in the lab, the louder the voices will become that simply want to points. In a way by making the lab more complicated you strengthen the resistance to the very piece of content you want to improve.

I don't think getting AC points in the quickest fashion possible is what outspoken Lab haters want. It certainly isn't what I want. It doesn't need to be quick or easy - it just needs to be in another way than the one particular way that is possible now. This might be achieved by improving the Lab or by opening an alternative route to AC points.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

That's the thing, if you are taking a character that cannot clear anything quickly, then it is not the lab that does not give good experience, it's more your character that cannt xp efficiently, and that will be even more true outside of the lab, likely.

I dont use the same skills/gear/setup in the lab as outside of the lab. Example: Pathfinder uses/used chaos/poison AWC (5link in coil) for lab with gear being focused on regen/charges/defenses. And EK totem in Soul Mantle (with Self Flagellation) for most mapping. Same build/passives, different gear, different skills used.

But that does not change anything here : you are using a setup that cannot clear efficiently = you don't xp well, that's it.

"

Fruz wrote:

But that does not change anything here : you are using a setup that cannot clear efficiently = you don't xp well, that's it.

If you see it that way then I dont know what your xp argumentation is about...

People hate the lab for many reasons. Players have to quit thinking that everyone is playing the game the same way they do or want the same things from the game that they want.

The problem with the lab is that there's no alternatives.