A New Proposal for Addressing Labyrinth Hatred

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There was a lot of enthusiasm for the Labyrinth before it was released

I think the enthusiasm was more placed on the additional player power and options that AC classes created, then the lab as a piece of content itself. Feel free to link any initial reactions pre lab from streamers and let me know who viewed it as an interesting thing ahead of time.

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and I do think there are plenty of hardcore PoE fans who would be willing to reevaluate their opinion of the Labyrinth if some of its perceived problems were addressed.

I think there are some no doubt, but the people that post daily or weekly about it just don't want to eat meat at all, they just want the dessert.

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That itself is a thorny issue, because we don't all agree on where the problems lie. But here's my take, and I'll go out on a limb and predict that the following will ring true for a lot of PoE players:

Which is the problem indeed, adjusting various things may not matter at all, when you consider the vegans don't want to eat the meat, they will make any and all excuses possible to avoid it.

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1. The trap issue is a red herring. Labyrinth antipathy primarily comes from the fact that most people don't play it for fun. They play it for profit. (This is true of both Lab "lovers" and Lab "haters." There are exceptions, but I think this is generally true.) Now, traps are certainly relevant to that, to the extent that they make the process of running through the Labyrinth even less fun. But the fundamental issue here is that 95% of the joy to be experienced comes at the very end: the Izaro fight for those who like a challenge and an adrenaline rush, and the treasure room for those who like loot explosions.

Do you consider playing the lab for AC points to be profit? Because IMO everyone that does it for AC points is profiting from the additional power and clearspeed they get.

If you are referring to actual lab runners and stuff like that, I would say fewer people run the lab for profit that actually dislike doing so. An example would be like the streamer mors which gets so upset about the lab, he ran it many many times this league for either an enchant or whatever other reason he ran it.

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2. The reasons the Labyrinth lends itself to playing for profit and not for fun are as follows:
-a) The piñatas are mostly at the end. This discourages exploration.
-b) The piñatas which are not at the end are published daily on reddit. This discourages exploration.
-c) You make a mistake, or the client makes a mistake and disconnects, or the client makes a mistake and gives you too much latency or a frame-rate spike, and your entire run is toast. This discourages exploration.

What discourages exploration even more is the fact that information is shared. This is not a flaw at all, this is in fact a design decision that GGG made to give the community something they can work together and help each other with. Its one of the only piece of content that has a community vibe around it and you essentially want to destroy it.

Is there some merit to exploring the unknown, perhaps, maybe implement a completely random one where you pay a fee and it can pay out for you, where you as a player must make the choice to imitate the lab in a more random fashion with rewards scattered about, moreso then now.

C really only applies to people prone to issues, in the rare occurrence of disconnects for people that have decent computers and connections, the good news is that runs don't take "that long" especially because the information is shared. Connection issues in 2017 is up to a player to resolve, not GGG to cripple game design because of it. Desync is an example of an issue GGG can address, the things you mentioned about connections are the responsibility of the player.

Perhaps the real solution to this lies with giving players a choice, but ensuring the choice we have now is the more strait forward one, so people can get their AC points without being lost in a maze, if they so wish.

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3. If you agree with me that ARPG content which encourages exploration is almost always going to be more fun than content which discourages exploration, then you'll also agree that encouraging exploration of the Labyrinth will make it more fun. So let's go back and look at the fun that we experience at the end of the Labyrinth:

It could make it more fun for various people, but does it make it more fun for those that just want to get the AC points? Considering the biggest contention in the topic is that people want to get the AC points in the quickest fashion possible, the issue becomes that the harder you make it to get the points in the lab, the louder the voices will become that simply want to points. In a way by making the lab more complicated you strengthen the resistance to the very piece of content you want to improve.

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-a) The challenging boss fight

Some argue hes already too hard. While I think for the most part learning his mechanics is just like learning about act bosses, ect, people still don't care to do simple research to properly prepare for the challenge. Its the same reason why people pay for carries, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in ARPG games and NOT something new in even this game.

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-b) The loot explosion,
and look at how we can distribute it throughout the Labyrinth:

Theres this fascination with distributing the rewards and I don't really understand why. Think of the lab as climbing a mountain, do you get rewarded for climbing the mountain or are you rewarded for reaching the top? The lab as a whole works pretty damn well for rewarding at the top, because thats when you have proved that you can overcome the challenge (with or without help)

That isn't to say in this "ideal" randomized one where you as a player would pay to engage in it that the rewards couldn't be more scattered about, but for the regular lab, the rewards being at the end is logical by design. Again, there are times when people do go out of their way in the current lab to get rewards, so no need to change the regular lab in terms of that.

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-a) Raise the difficulty of the monsters so they are more than just trash. Add more mini-bosses in random spots throughout the Labyrinth (existing ones are fine, such as Rogue Exiles or Beyond/Invasion monsters). Argus is a perfect example of this, but he alone is not enough.

Argus's reward is a key, what would the mini bosses reward you with? And I'm not sure how often you've played against invasion bosses, but having one of them block your way in a zone you might not see until you turn a corner isn't the most elegant way to challenge a player.

Seems like B maybe addresses the reward aspect...

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-b) Have the mini-bosses randomly drop a silver key, a gold key (rarely), or no key at all. Make silver key caches more rewarding, such that they are always worth taking the time and trouble (and risk) to go after. Have better rewards hidden behind secret passages, including some of the mini-bosses above.

Are the minibosses or exiles in their own little area or are they just scattered around?

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4. GGG CANNOT and SHOULD NOT implement idea #3 above at the current time, because then the Lab would be far too rewarding. Why? Because of the fucking reddit meta, which emerged due to the lack of randomization.

They could implement it perfectly fine into this separate random lab idea, where you wager some currency and its a gamble if it pays off.

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Players will simply run the Labyrinth extra on the most profitable and/or least painful layouts. Like they already do! So what do we do? Easy: We kill it. Randomize EVERY run through the Labyrinth. And THEN implement #3. The current reddit situation is the equivalent of a sanctioned maphack. And maphacks will always, necessarily, interfere with any attempts to balance reward distribution throughout content. That's why they are a bannable offense, right? Get rid of this stupid maphack already--it hurts your game.

Its not a map hack, map hacks tell you where the monsters are, what they do, ect. While the lab layout might tell you where argus is, what the boss phases are, it doesn't tell you exactly what the traps setups are (although a video could) and they do say the last room, its still not the same.


You are neglecting that GGG not only encourages people to share the information about the lab, they designed it so it could be shared.

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5. We have a new problem now: the races have been killed. Or have they? The races will still be a thing, but they will rely on luck to a much greater degree than they do now, due to every run being different. This will be hated by a small group of elite players, but how highly should we prioritize them, honestly? Furthermore, skill will still be required, so that group of players objecting to this change on the basis of racing may be even smaller than we predict.

Races based on luck alone is not a race that many people want to compete with. In the 2 lab system races can be separated into random layout and non random layouts or just stick with the non random layouts.

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Objection) You want to randomize the Labyrinth and keep me from using reddit to cheat, OK. But I already hate the Labyrinth. And now you want to make it even harder to get through? The fuck is wrong with you?
Response) You hate the Labyrinth because it is not fun to play, yes. This change will make the Labyrinth harder, but it will also make it much more fun throughout the entire time you play. Is it really so bad for the Labyrinth to be harder and more time-consuming, if it's actually fun to play?

For people that just want the AC points, probably. People like turtle complained about the lab before even doing merciless one, they simply took one bite (if even that) and said it tasted like shit. You can sprinkle toppings on it all you want, if they have to do the lab they will still complain they are eating the meat at all.

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Can this change be implemented in time for the 3.0 release? Hell no.

So why we discussing it, LUL

Knowing GGG's schedule and understanding of changes, this is all just nice discussion on theory, when you think about it the only action in which GGG can do to satisfy the people that don't want to eat meat is just to enable them to do that, which is not do the content. Not only is that the easiest thing they can do, but the only thing they would likely spend dev resources to do. Which is why all of these discussions about large changes are completely pointless.

Which is ultimately why GGG is in such a terrible position with the lab, because doing nice changes will not quench the needs of the vegans, but only anger them more because "the easier solution they could have done if they changing the lab at all"

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Take my idea and run with it please, GGG. Sooner rather than later. The sooner you can address this issue, the sooner you will bring a huge swathe of fans back into the fold. Many of these fans have deep pockets. Surely the potential profit-to-labor ratio is high enough to merit putting this higher on your team's priority list, is it not?

They don't run with anything, maybe a fast walk is about as much as you can get.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Exploration will still be a bad idea when running for ascendancy points. You don't want to risk anything on those runs and normally they're just done to gain power and get out. Your suggestion won't do anything to address lab haters' problems. It will only make lab runners richer.

It isn't just exploration, from my point of view. It is more importantly making it fun.

What is fun about PoE? Kill monsters get loot, that's what. Right now the lab has crappy boring white monsters. Those are less fun and exciting with little loot. Throwing in some blue and yellow monster groups would make it fun. This raises a new problem though that I thought of last night.

More exciting monsters should mean more loot. This is good BUT leaving loot that one would usually vendor is frustrating. With the horrible lab you can't go to town whenever you want. So there needs to also be a solution for this. Some potential solutions would be:

A) Allow portals into town, limited somehow?
B) Allow stash access in more areas than aspirants trial?
C) Make lab shorter so that less loot gets accumulated?

Theres blue and yellows in there as well....not to mention strongboxes that can have these.

A) Probably never going to happen. It defeats the purpose of limiting flask useage if you can portal out at any point. It also removes some of the challenge aspect if you can portal out at all.

B) But why, you are limited in maps, especially in full parties or zana maps and the areas therebetween the trials are smaller then the maps, you don't find more then an inventory full of stuff to take with you, do you?

C) Normal and cruel level ones will be shorter, but you cannot sit here and tell me you accumulate too much stuff inbetween point a>b>b>c

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Pyrokar wrote:

I never understood why trap damage was percentile damage. Maybe they wanted to promote skill (or as i like to call it Mario-skill) over stats. But then why didn't they do it for all the stats? Example:
-No one has any regen in the lab
-Everyone runs at a certain speed
-Movement skills disabled for everyone
It seems so half-assed and required tuning already (by making trap dmg less for es), but then there are builds that have both life and es at different ratios and since they mostly have a different number of life and es, all trap damage is varying among those builds.

And now we have a situation where a lvl 100 char dies on a lvl 35 area because of that failed attempt to create equality among all builds to seemingly promote skill which backfired so much in their face, it's not even funny.

Not only did they not create something skill-based, since there is no equality, but also created a situation where your defensive stats in some cases, made you weaker as you increased them.

Promoting softcore -look at how fast i am going- speed meta much?

They do a % damage so you can't completely outgear the challenge.


Because making it so no one had any regen punishes life builds, they have smaller pools to work with and don't recharge out of combat like es does.

Limiting speed, limits something a character plans around, just like regen, you can't say an evasion based character that has a lot of movement speed suddenly removed creates an equal challenge as someone that is tanky and better built to take hits, because about 1\2 the traps actually do have a hit effect.


Its not half assed, its intentionally done so that it gives players options, the only option as a player you don't have is to completely outgear the challenge, which is the freaking point.....unlike your so called "restrictions" which just guts not only passive tree choices but gear and build choices as well.

I want to see this level 100 character die in a level 35 zone.......show me or don't bother bringing up some theoretical bullshit scenario that likely has never even occurred.

You guy, just assume that poor network usage optimisation used by Path of Exile is players fault? I have PC that is far beyond minimum requirements, and broadband connection with no problems on any other games, and still disconnects, desyncs, game errors, random crashes, particle crashes, pixel disco etc. So, if you are lucky to not experiencing such things, then every1 else have to be punished by terrible trap and one-time entry mechanic that lab offers? Don't be ridicolous, pls.

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1. The trap issue is a red herring. Labyrinth antipathy primarily comes from the fact that most people don't play it for fun. They play it for profit. (This is true of both Lab "lovers" and Lab "haters." There are exceptions, but I think this is generally true.) Now, traps are certainly relevant to that, to the extent that they make the process of running through the Labyrinth even less fun. But the fundamental issue here is that 95% of the joy to be experienced comes at the very end: the Izaro fight for those who like a challenge and an adrenaline rush, and the treasure room for those who like loot explosions.

I'm going to contest you on this point. This is assuming that every single player that plays the lab are farming it when there are going to be players that just want to get it out of the way and not necessarily focus on the rewards.

People on these forums will say anything to avoid actually pointing out that the traps just have poorly thought out layouts for what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to be obstacles you have to pay attention to and avoid, but right now the traps in the labs are sometimes too closely knit to allow for that kind of skill as a way of minimizing the damage they do. Yeah, skipping them with movement skills or just brute forcing the damage is a way of getting past them, but that should be in ADDITION to the option of weaving around and dodging the traps, not the intended method of getting past them.

That and they put stairs that are half fire floor next to floors that have no safe spots, effectively killing the player.

Only introduction of portals like maps have will encourage me to to lab for more than Ascendancy points (or rejigging my APs). That's just a personal preference...if it doesn't happen, fine, plenty else to do in the game.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

1. The trap issue is a red herring. Labyrinth antipathy primarily comes from the fact that most people don't play it for fun. They play it for profit.

There may be many reasons why people dislike the labyrinth, but this one surely ranks low on the totem pole. I couldn't say it better than one of your supporters, so I will just quote them:

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Turtledove wrote:

What is fun about PoE? Kill monsters get loot, that's what.

In conclusion, everything in POE is played for profit- fun and profit are inseparable. It's interesting how they agree with your conclusions while undermining your reasoning.

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As for the suggestion of randomizing all layouts and increasing rewards? Sure. I don't think the competitive aspect adds much to the lab, and who doesn't want to get more rewards for doing the same thing.

I don't think it will placate many people, it may actually aggravate some if they conclude it's rewarding enough that it becomes a more valuable grind spot than their current pattern, and they really do just-hate-the-traps or its uninterruptable length. In some ways, the value of the lab is what people already complain about, although more as a 1-time thing for the Ascendancy, not as much as consistent grind spot. Adding loot value adds fuel to that fire.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

-c) You make a mistake, or the client makes a mistake and disconnects, or the client makes a mistake and gives you too much latency or a frame-rate spike, and your entire run is toast. This discourages exploration.

+ "server makes mistake" cases
+ "isp/whatever_in_between makes mistake" cases

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gibbousmoon wrote:

3. Exploration

Spoiler

3. If you agree with me that ARPG content which encourages exploration is almost always going to be more fun than content which discourages exploration, then you'll also agree that encouraging exploration of the Labyrinth will make it more fun. So let's go back and look at the fun that we experience at the end of the Labyrinth:
-a) The challenging boss fight, and
-b) The loot explosion,
and look at how we can distribute it throughout the Labyrinth:
-a) Raise the difficulty of the monsters so they are more than just trash. Add more mini-bosses in random spots throughout the Labyrinth (existing ones are fine, such as Rogue Exiles or Beyond/Invasion monsters). Argus is a perfect example of this, but he alone is not enough.
-b) Have the mini-bosses randomly drop a silver key, a gold key (rarely), or no key at all. Make silver key caches more rewarding, such that they are always worth taking the time and trouble (and risk) to go after. Have better rewards hidden behind secret passages, including some of the mini-bosses above.

Yes it is a major issue with lab. Exploration is hardly ever worth it. There are a few exceptions but thats about it. I may not even bother with things like 'hidden cache'(?) even if I accidentally open it. And then there is the map silver key reward chest with T1 maps...

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gibbousmoon wrote:

4. GGG CANNOT and SHOULD NOT implement idea #3 above at the current time, because then the Lab would be far too rewarding. Why? Because of the fucking reddit meta, which emerged due to the lack of randomization. Players will simply run the Labyrinth extra on the most profitable and/or least painful layouts. Like they already do! So what do we do? Easy: We kill it. Randomize EVERY run through the Labyrinth. And THEN implement #3. The current reddit situation is the equivalent of a sanctioned maphack. And maphacks will always, necessarily, interfere with any attempts to balance reward distribution throughout content. That's why they are a bannable offense, right? Get rid of this stupid maphack already--it hurts your game.

Disagree somewhat, agree somewhat. Dont like attitude.
Random Izaro adds I dislike especially. They (which Izaro adds) are too important for low DPS builds. Izaro is already rather mean in design in this respect. Making the adds random makes this aspect a lot worse yet.

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sidtherat wrote:

you use the same mind- and skill-set in lab as during map clears

Dont know who you mean with 'you'. But for me this is false. I use a very different mind set for lab/traps. I even have to "readjust" to normal gameplay after doing many lab runs. Its like a different game played with the same "toon".

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goetzjam wrote:

They do a % damage so you can't completely outgear the challenge.

But you can... CI ZO regen tank focusing on regen + endurance charges => can probably facetank/outregen traps even in "increased damage taken" area.

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goetzjam wrote:

I want to see this level 100 character die in a level 35 zone.......show me or don't bother bringing up some theoretical bullshit scenario that likely has never even occurred.

That was probably referring to trap damage system. Lvl 100 can die to traps in normal lab like to traps in uber lab.

The quality of lab threads recently has improved !
I would not be against randomizing the lab to make it actually labyrintic, however .... there would need to be adjustments regarding enchantments I believe, otherwise it would become even harder to acquire.

I still think that you are underestimating the side areas in the lab in its current state, you are mentioning Argus as a good piece of side content but some chest give you exactly the same reward : a treasure key !!!
But I agree that some more incentive could be added there, just not as much as you seem to think is needed.
That said, the RNG nature of the game make it so that you cannot be assured to get good rewards ( even treasure keys can end up opening a chest with nothing "interesting" in it ).
Some xp bonuses might work on some notable monster maybe ?

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Zrevnur wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

They do a % damage so you can't completely outgear the challenge.

But you can... CI ZO regen tank focusing on regen + endurance charges => can probably facetank/outregen traps even in "increased damage taken" area.

Try running on a sawblade.
Enjoy.

But I agree that there could be some limitations regarding this.

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Fruz wrote:

you are mentioning Argus as a good piece of side content but some chest give you exactly the same reward : a treasure key !!!

Correct and its one of the few good side "quests". But Argus doesnt require hunting for silver key AND for silver door. So Argus is only ~50% effort of silver door Treasure key.
And I usually skip even Argus if not on the path.

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Fruz wrote:

Some xp bonuses might work on some notable monster maybe ?

"Giving" Izaro more xp wouldnt be wrong either. One of the main drawbacks of lab running is "no exp".

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Fruz wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

They do a % damage so you can't completely outgear the challenge.

But you can... CI ZO regen tank focusing on regen + endurance charges => can probably facetank/outregen traps even in "increased damage taken" area.

Try running on a sawblade.
Enjoy.

Are you guessing or do you have facts?