I really hate lab

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

[...]

I saw only salt and bad faith in this message, sorry.
( and a double negation too )

Let's wait that GGG fixes all the internet problems of the world before trying to do any kind of content that might be difficult to players, great idea.

"

Marinxar wrote:

[... irrelevant uninteresting stuff ...]You trolling every thread with your "but it works for me" arguments is just childish, stupid and short sighted.

So you can't be bothered to check what's wrong on your end and/or get geed, and I am making "childish, stupid and short sighted" arguments ?
lulz.

Have fun with that, in the meanwhile I will be enjoying playing PoE with my 100+ms connection, that is not completely stable but allows me to play the game all the same and have fun doing it, lab included.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

[...]

I saw only salt and bad faith in this message, sorry.
( and a double negation too )

Let's wait that GGG fixes all the internet problems of the world before trying to do any kind of content that might be difficult to players, great idea.

"

Marinxar wrote:

[... irrelevant uninteresting stuff ...]You trolling every thread with your "but it works for me" arguments is just childish, stupid and short sighted.

So you can't be bothered to check what's wrong on your end and/or get geed, and I am making "childish, stupid and short sighted" arguments ?
lulz.

Have fun with that, in the meanwhile I will be enjoying playing PoE with my 100+ms connection, that is not completely stable but allows me to play the game all the same and have fun doing it, lab included.

Thanks for the double negation highlight, fixed it.

It's no salt and no bad faith. If it ever was, I wouldn't still be he enjoying the game. But saying that PoE is "hardcore" except regarding the grind is false.

Oh, and I play Dota 2 also, which has it's fair of connection problems at times, but imagine if that game would have the same connection reliability problems (and that is an online PvP environment, so any connection problems hurt a lot more)...

Those that tout "hardcore game" about PoE have to adjust their point of view, especially since GGG invited a larger audience that revolve around more casual players...

So others have to adjust their point of view because yours is right ?
That is pretty narrow minded.

Throw a brand new players to Wraeclast, and see how he gets crushed by the content over and over ( even though it has been simplified quiiiiiiite a bit ).
The learning curve is very steap, and without a big chunk of that knowledge, you cannot build a char properly, and the content will remind it to you very often, you also cannot react properly to what the content is throwing at you, etc ....

Or maybe you forgot about that ? And you are forgetting that many things have been added on top of what was there 4 years ago ?

And when you start having this knowledge, there are still parts of the game that are really far, aka red maps, guardians, Atziri and uber ( to beat ).


Whatever you may think, this does fit (at least) a kind of "hardcoreness", because you need to invest yourself if you want to understand it and not get wrecked, if you want to see what's there, build something, etc ....


Sure you could be a damn sheep follow a guide, but even doing that, without any game knowledge or being a very experienced video game player, you will get destroyed to start with.

PS : Funny how the game isn't *apparently* hardcore and we see quite many thread QQing about the fact that there is a death penalty before lvl 80 ( or 90 ), is it ?

"

Fruz wrote:

So others have to adjust their point of view because yours is right ?
That is pretty narrow minded.

Throw a brand new players to Wraeclast, and see how he gets crushed by the content over and over ( even though it has been simplified quiiiiiiite a bit ).
The learning curve is very steap, and without a big chunk of that knowledge, you cannot build a char properly, and the content will remind it to you very often, you also cannot react properly to what the content is throwing at you, etc ....

Or maybe you forgot about that ? And you are forgetting that many things have been added on top of what was there 4 years ago ?

And when you start having this knowledge, there are still parts of the game that are really far, aka red maps, guardians, Atziri and uber ( to beat ).


Whatever you may think, this does fit (at least) a kind of "hardcoreness", because you need to invest yourself if you want to understand it and not get wrecked, if you want to see what's there, build something, etc ....


Sure you could be a damn sheep follow a guide, but even doing that, without any game knowledge or being a very experienced video game player, you will get destroyed to start with.

PS : Funny how the game isn't *apparently* hardcore and we see quite many thread QQing about the fact that there is a death penalty before lvl 80 ( or 90 ), is it ?

Not saying that others have to adjust their view, that is up to them, but I'm just stating the facts. PoE lacks "hardcore" feeling. Others should stop touting "hardcore" and PoE until those real problems that prevent having "hardcore" and PoE in the same sentence are addressed.

Oh, and if you played ARPG's before, PoE shouldn't feel overwhelming. It has many interesting mechanics, but should not be more than you could or have handled before.

Having everything obscure doesn't add to PoE's "hardcoreness", just adds several obstacles that have to be overcome by gaining information either by playing and paying attention, either by learning it from external sources as the game severely lacks ways of giving pertinent information - how many knew that Doedre had a mechanic regarding curses or the armour efficiency formula without explicitly searching for those? - and most of the times when you die, you have 0 ways of finding out how to improve yourself, except by slowly analysing the replay of a stream.

Although many things were added since the game was released in an alpha state, you can build a character that experiences the content up to tier 15 maps at least, without too much difficulty, by just adapting. You have to pay attention if you're lacking the knowledge from the start, but believe me, just by hoarding stuff and having a common sense when adding skill points, you'll get there. It will be no "easy game" mode, if you're not playing VP + ES, but you could do that.

And yes, even a n00b that sees resistances lower by changing difficulty or by being cursed should get the point that those are values to stack higher than the normal 75%...

Regarding those end game fights, you could get to them, and if you're skillful enough, you could manage them as they're mainly mechanical fights as EZ CI runs illustrated.

The difficulty curve is severely lacking as without paying attention to defensive mechanics and just by overleveling and overgearing, you just breeze through the story acts like they're not even there. Everyone wants to feel like a god in this game but forgets that to get to that level, you need to get invested - and that is actually true for any game - you either need to be/became skillful enough, or have better stuff than requested to complete a certain aspect.

The game isn't "hardcore", and the death penalty should get better tuned as to be relevant from the start - having no death penalty in the part of the game that everyone experiences is not helping - and no one would QQ if the progression from 1-100 would stay the same.

To have the last 10 levels ARTIFICIALLY separated, instead of requesting end game content to be played to advance is a bad decision. There is a reason why people are daisy chaining Shaped Dunes/Strands or Gorges to advance their level as the danger/EXP reward ratio lacks, and trading nullifies the incentive to experience the said end game content (except for Uber "Labyrinth" for the last 2 Ascendency points or having Atlas completion maxed).

"Hardcore" much, right? Neah. Not in this state. Unfortunately.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Not saying that others have to adjust their view, that is up to them, but I'm just stating the facts.

Yes you are, and no you are not.

This is literally what you said :

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Those that tout "hardcore game" about PoE have to adjust their point of view

You see ? You said that, that's what a fact is.

I used to play Diablo1 a bit, PoE has sooo much more depth it's not even open for discussion at this point.
PoE just takes much more time to learn and understand, and it requires a much bigger amount of knowledge to reach the final "levels".

And yes, the fact that you have to look for everything yourself ( in game or not ) increase the difficulty, a lot compared to having everything handled on a silver plate.
You like it or not, that's a part of it and a part of what can be considered "hardcore", you need to invest much more time / resources to reach your ends.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Although many things were added since the game was released in an alpha state, you can build a character that experiences the content up to tier 15 maps at least without too much difficulty, by just adapting. You have to pay attention if you're lacking the knowledge from the start, but believe me, just by hoarding stuff and having a common sense when adding skill points, you'll get there. It will be no easy game mode, if you're not playing VP + ES, but you could do that.

You are not even trying to get a beginner's point of view at all, it's so obvious and you are so biased by the fact that you know the game already.
You can try harder.

Having a death penalty from the start ? You mean a death penalty when getting a level takes 5 minutes ? Oo
Like what exactly ?
And no, people are QQing about the death penalty because their characters are not built properly enough to survive the content, or they are playing too recklessly, not because there is no deaht penalty at level 10.


I will just ignore the rest of your post @"You can get to the end game fights", since you have reached level 97 ... but not beaten the Eater of soul, like ever.
You have not done it yourself with hundreds of hours ( if not thousands ) invested into the game, but you think you can just say "it's not hardcore, you can do everything in there, it's not even difficult !"
"without too much difficulty"
"by just adapting"
"you'll get there"
/rofl

"

Fruz wrote:

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Not saying that others have to adjust their view, that is up to them, but I'm just stating the facts.

Yes you are, and no you are not.

This is literally what you said :

"

sofocle1000 wrote:

Those that tout "hardcore game" about PoE have to adjust their point of view

I used to play Diablo1 a bit, PoE has sooo much more depth it's not even open for discussion at this point.
PoE just takes much more time to learn and understand, and it requires a much bigger amount of knowledge to reach the final "levels".

And yes, the fact that you have to look for everything yourself ( in game or not ) increase the difficulty, a lot compared to having everything handled on a silver plate.
You like it or not, that's a part of it and a part of what can be considered "hardcore", you need to invest much more time / resources to reach your ends.

"

sofocle1000 wrote:

Although many things were added since the game was released in an alpha state, you can build a character that experiences the content up to tier 15 maps at least without too much difficulty, by just adapting. You have to pay attention if you're lacking the knowledge from the start, but believe me, just by hoarding stuff and having a common sense when adding skill points, you'll get there. It will be no easy game mode, if you're not playing VP + ES, but you could do that.

You are not even trying to get a beginner's point of view at all, it's so obvious and you are o biased by the fact that you know the game already.
You can try harder.

Having a death penalty from the start ? You mean a death penalty when getting a level takes 5 minutes ? Oo
Like what exactly ?
And no, people are QQing about the death penalty because their characters are not built properly enough to survive the content, or they are playing too recklessly, not because there is no deaht penalty at level 10.


I will just ignore the rest of your post @"You can get to the end game fights", since you have reached level 97 ... but not beaten the Eater of soul, like ever.
You have not done it yourself with hundreds of hours ( if not thousands ) invested into the game, but you think you can just say "it's not hardcore, you can do everything in there, it's not even difficult !"
"without too much difficulty"
"by just adapting"
"you'll get there"
/rofl

Instead of "have", would have been better to use "should", right? My bad.

That time/resource investment to understand the game is considered "hardcore", wasn't questioned for a second, as PoE gets the grind truly "hardcore".

Having a reworked death penalty that applies to the Normal playthrough would be better. Let's go a wild guess and think about the horror of losing a level/blocking a skill point allocation due to dying to make people understand the "hardcoreness" of having to stay alive even through the first 30-40 levels. That would feel a lot more "hardcore" don't you think?

I'm only 96, and I don't like endgame fights too much, remember that great EXP gain/danger reward ratio that we were talking about - you haven't talked about me killing Atziri, or Uber (as not all of us are trading for our items), but Eater of Souls is such a concern right? - and I slowly progress towards that achievement, I'm at 102 completion on the Atlas, I'll get there.

And I say it's not that difficult if you pursue that goal. Even if you take your own time, you will still get there...

PS: Fun fact regarding beginners, all my friends that played ARPG's before weren't overwhelmed by PoE depth, and even the 2 newbies that started by playing PoE haven't experienced major difficulties in understanding how the game works. Most of them are still playing. But PoE has to feel worth it for you to become invested, and ARPG's although popular, might not suit everyone taste, especially since the greatest rewards come when you are sufficiently invested in these sort of games...

"

Fruz wrote:

See ? It's getting about splitting hairs now.
PoE naturally attracts people that are looking for at least a somewhat hardcore experience.
Such depths kinda goes with a hardcore experience since the amount of knowledge and room for mistake is really big.

So I would say that people that do not want anything like a hardcore experience are likely not playing PoE to start with.

This is why "hardcore" here is a purely subjective term that everybody can manipulate however they want.

PoE is already providing somewhat of a hardcore experience.
Lab enchances that feeling.
I don't see a problem here.

"hardcore" does not necessarily refer to the technical league type.

The problem with your statement here is that IS what Chris was referring to. The league type, not your nebulous personal definition. I've seen you conflate the two in the past, which makes your arguments incoherent, because people may be talking about one thing and you jump in talking about something different.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

[...]

Before jumping in, trying to be condescending, you should probably have checked from the start of the argument :

"

torturo wrote:

The hardcore-ness of PoE is an outdated propaganda. Taking into account the game evolution, PoE stopped being hardcore since the end of 2013.

(This was the original statement that I was referring too.)

That would have saved you that embarrassing post.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Having a reworked death penalty that applies to the Normal playthrough would be better. Let's go a wild guess and think about the horror of losing a level/blocking a skill point allocation due to dying to make people understand the "hardcoreness" of having to stay alive even through the first 30-40 levels. That would feel a lot more "hardcore" don't you think?

Of course it would, but that would be ridiculously inconsistent with what's coming after, and it would not keep people from QQing after either.
It's been a long time, but if I recall correctly, the merc penaly used to be 15%, the cruel one 10% .... and I'm not sure but there used to be a 5% one in normal, or ?

And eater of soul is a farther goal than Atziri ( no idea if you've killed uber or not, there is no achievement for this one, is it ? ), this is why I mentioned it.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

And I say it's not that difficult if you pursue that goal. Even if you take your own time, you will still get there...

So it is not difficult if you get to a point where you have enough knowledge to reach the highest tier, spend hundred and hundred of hours and then access the content than maybe less than 1% of the population ever sees ?
That's splitting hairs to me, those are components of difficulty.

As an example, have you ever played FFX ?
I think that all FFX players would agree that beating Der Richter is a pretty hardcore thing, it's not exactly easy to get there and to do it.
What does it need ? Knowledge and time, essentially.

That is part of the skillset there, and it is the same in Path of Exile.
Difficulty is not only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement, it just isn't.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

[...]

Before jumping in, trying to be condescending, you should probably have checked from the start of the argument :

"

torturo wrote:

The hardcore-ness of PoE is an outdated propaganda. Taking into account the game evolution, PoE stopped being hardcore since the end of 2013.

(This was the original statement that I was referring too.)

That would have saved you that embarrassing post.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Having a reworked death penalty that applies to the Normal playthrough would be better. Let's go a wild guess and think about the horror of losing a level/blocking a skill point allocation due to dying to make people understand the "hardcoreness" of having to stay alive even through the first 30-40 levels. That would feel a lot more "hardcore" don't you think?

Of course it would, but that would be ridiculously inconsistent with what's coming after, and it would not keep people from QQing after either.
It's been a long time, but if I recall correctly, the merc penaly used to be 15%, the cruel one 10% .... and I'm not sure but there used to be a 5% one in normal, or ?

And eater of soul is a farther goal than Atziri ( no idea if you've killed uber or not, there is no achievement for this one, is it ? ), this is why I mentioned it.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

And I say it's not that difficult if you pursue that goal. Even if you take your own time, you will still get there...

So it is not difficult if you get to a point where you have enough knowledge to reach the highest tier, spend hundred and hundred of hours and then access the content than maybe less than 1% of the population ever sees ?
That's splitting hairs to me, those are components of difficulty.

As an example, have you ever played FFX ?
I think that all FFX players would agree that beating Der Richter is a pretty hardcore thing, it's not exactly easy to get there and to do it.
What does it need ? Knowledge and time, essentially.

That is part of the skillset there, and it is the same in Path of Exile.
Difficulty is not only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement, it just isn't.

Well, Torturo was right and made an completely accurate statement from my point of view.

Yes, there used to be a 5% death penalty on Normal, up to 15% on merciless, but it would have been better to at least have those values reversed, so even on Normal you would have still payed attention to the EXP bar.

The proposed solution would have been a small part of a larger rework, that encompassed the lack of end game focused incentive versus the higher end from an EXP point of view. And if the same system applied for all the 1-100 levels, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Yes, I played some FFX. While you're of course right, FFX lacked certain cheats opposed to PoE - instant log out, zerging, paying carries - so even if it relied on knowledge, time and skill, was more closer to have difficulty as only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement as defining factors of "hardcoreness".

It's not wrong to have other factors too - like time and knowledge - as defining "hardcore", but for the moment, PoE involves too little skillplay to have a "hardcore" feeling - and this is the only game where you could get killed by obscene RNG no matter your skillplay, and that won't ever feel right...

Too much talking