Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee

5400 life is not suicide.
You guys need to stop exaggerating like this.

I reached 89 in HC with ~4950 HP on the last level, I was pretty fucking safe most of the time, only I brainfarted and got killed by reflect in one of the worst encounter about it.
Appart from that stupid mistake, it was nothing but suicide, I was running until T10 or T11 on this char.
I ran higher maps a bit later in standard and it was fine too.

Now, t13/t14+ might be a different story, but those ones are kinda bonuses to me, you don't need them to reach high level, apparently even until level 100.

And he was not using the dying sun during the video, or he mentioned when he did I think, don't exactly remember.


Now bladefall traps are also something that is definitely over the top damage wise imho.
You cannot take the strongest chaos double dipping combinations as references for balance purposes, seriously.
I reaaaaally have yet to see a whispering ice build deleting Atziri like this, especially with Ghetto like you are pretending. Same for firestorm, do you have any actual experience with it ?
If you can show it ....

Flameblast is pretty strong, it lower clearspeed imho but the pre charge against bosses really shine. I have yet to see a flameblast user with a Ghetto build instant killing Atziri like this tho.

So this seem like exaggerating, like a lot.

And keep in mind that the ratio exa:chaos mid league was something like 20:1, and that you can find a correct ele dagger without trading, or for less than an exalt.
I can't believe that you do not know that the ratio was like this if like you say, you are playing high level HC every league.

There are > 250 eDPS and > 8% crit chance dagger for this price, and most of them for less than 50 chaos in HC, but the users are offline, it is the end of the league after all.
So you definitely can find such weapon, and definitely can find an ele dagger correct enough to destroy everything.

But the fact is that you did die, yes?

HC chars are about staying alive first and foremost, even if you managed to make it really far on an hc toon using 4950 life it cannot be said that you built that char with survival in mind and you certainly were going to get killed by something eventually. My last char died with over 8000 es to instagib from blue pack.

As for the daggers I don't know where you found them, I linked the search. I would find it highly suspicious that suddenly a bunch of cheap edps daggers pop up after I use that as an example at the end of the league.
My personal experience with daggers in hc is that there are not daggers available that do significantly more damage than Binos even late in the league. Regardless of how much currency you have.

Whispering ice if we're going to continue on about that, costs 3 alchemy. And there are videos of this build doing shaper easily, facetanking him and killing him in relatively short order.

Honestly the one thing this thread has proven to me anyways, is that if you want to go melee daggers you need to invest a shit ton more into your character whereas a caster basically just needs the gems the tree and a +1 scepter.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

But the fact is that you did die, yes?

HC chars are about staying alive first and foremost, even if you managed to make it really far on an hc toon using 4950 life it cannot be said that you built that char with survival in mind and you certainly were going to get killed by something eventually.

As for the daggers I don't know where you found them, I linked the search. I would find it highly suspicious that suddenly a bunch of cheap edps daggers pop up after I use that as an example at the end of the league.
My personal experience with daggers in hc is that there are not daggers available that do significantly more damage than Binos even late in the league. Regardless of how much currency you have.

Whispering ice if we're going to continue on about that, costs 3 alchemy. And there are videos of this build doing shaper easily, facetanking him and killing him in relatively short order.

You said earlier that you were regularly playing HC, every league at high level.
You have yet to have one character over lvl 90.
So I'm sorry, but you are not actually talking out of experience here.
for level < 90, ( because going t14+ makes no sense at this level, there is no need ), 5k life is fine, unless you don't know how to build your character.

I guess if you are trying to facetank without thinking all the content, it wont be enough for all situations ....

I have probably gone further than you in one league, and the reason why I riped this char was not the life pool, this char is definitely tanky, life isn't everything.

http://poe.trade/search/aheyenyumyohar

About the whispering ice :
- you are not going anywhere with just the staff, it's a very strong staff and the fact that you don't need any link to have it working is kinda baffling to be honest.
- It's very strong ... and it's also 2H, which means more dangerous, which means ... more gear to compensate the defense loss
- It still does not instantly kill Atziri's phases like BF does. If she spawn the flameblast directly on top of you and you haven't had loaded it fully, you could move before she dies, in which case whispering ice would do continuous damage while you move, that would be where it's slightly better I guess.

flicker strike and blade flurry, both does not count attack speed in their tooltip

with the same exact gear flasks and auras, i have 100k flicker dps and 150k with blade flurry

ok, flicker has multistrike so hits 3 times by the time flurry hits twice, but flurry has 120% more damage at 6th stage

so blade flurry has 150k*120%more which is 330k dps meanwhile flicker 100k*1,33% for the additional hit of multistrike so it's 133k dps ( flicker should be the highest single target damage skill for daggrs due to frenzy charge mechanic and very easy to fall in a mistake)

flicker 133k dps, blade flurry 330k at final stag:, consideering multistrike gem attack speed linked to flicker, blade flurry deals at least twice flicker damage so there is something wrong here.

and plus flicker you can't kill t15+bosses with this skill, while blade flurry is op

skills that are good in both AoE and boss kill usually has less dps than skill gems of the same class that aren't so efficient

tornado shot has lower base dmg than lightning arrow or ice shot, tornado shot is good in every situation, the other 2 gems not.

See, the fact that you think 5k life is viable tells me you have little experience with melee.

Not that bf is even melee anyways. 5k life might be enough with bf.

Regardless, I know from personal experience his build will never happen in hc. It WON'T HAPPEN.

2 things I know for a fact won't happen:
Bf won't be a good hc build next season even though people think it will be, there will just be more people trying and they will probably all quit or die
Bf won't top sc until equipment for it becomes available, which will be long after every caster build in poe has completed shaper already

STREAMERS like Mathil for example will probably still do shaper with bf in a day or two because they are streamers, but that's about it. Raiz did it in 15 hours with bv, it won't be that fast with bf.

You can fucking QUOTE ME on that.

"

InAshesTheyShallReap wrote:

stuff

Bf will do bosses better, flicker will still clear faster by several orders of magnitude

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

InAshesTheyShallReap wrote:

stuff

Bf will do bosses better, flicker will still clear faster by several orders of magnitude

try to clear with bino and death's hand, you won't go above T10 maps

you know that between bino+death's hand and a mirrored dagger+shield there is 400% more dps difference

now people kill easy the shaper with bino+death hand
if there were maps TIER 25, people would destroy those bosses with a mirrored dagger+shield and the current blade flurry

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

See, the fact that you think 5k life is viable tells me you have little experience with melee.

Not that bf is even melee anyways. 5k life might be enough with bf.

Regardless, I know from personal experience his build will never happen in hc. It WON'T HAPPEN.

2 things I know for a fact won't happen:
Bf won't be a good hc build next season even though people think it will be, there will just be more people trying and they will probably all quit or die
Bf won't top sc until equipment for it becomes available, which will be long after every caster build in poe has completed shaper already

STREAMERS like Mathil for example will probably still do shaper with bf in a day or two because they are streamers, but that's about it. Raiz did it in 15 hours with bv, it won't be that fast with bf.

You can fucking QUOTE ME on that.

You do like to pretend so, but you have shown nothing that does actually support that claim.

BF is definitely range enough to be an amazing choice for HC, especially since it's performing even one handed.
Well, that's according to how hard the nerf hammer will hit of course, I'm speaking in it's current state.

And you should stop your fantasy about casters builds costing nothing, spells are very strong in the current meta, but the gem itself isn't enough, you do need gear, you do need to scale the damage.
Attacks basically need the weapon and that's it, apart from some expensive crit builds and niche setups like facebreakers.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

STREAMERS like Mathil for example will probably still do shaper with bf in a day or two because they are streamers, but that's about it. Raiz did it in 15 hours with bv, it won't be that fast with bf.

He did it within 15 hours ... being PLed / rushed through all the content with top end gear waiting for the char hitting high level.
Nice example ...

Heh, k, we are repeating the same arguments at this point. Let's just make a bet.

If there are more melee characters than casters in next hc temp league at the top 50 after a few days, you can have all my stuff across all leagues.

If there is at least 15% of people using blade flurry builds in hc temp league in top 50 after a few days, you can have all my stuff across all leagues.

If blade flurry is the most used gem in hc temp top 50 after a few days, you can have all my stuff across all leagues.

If there is more than 30% of the total melee gems' builds (not including support gems or melee totems) contained in the hc temp league top 50 after a few days, you can have all my stuff across all leagues.

I would also make a few more bets FOR TOP 50 TEMP HC that I won't because of potential nerfs:
Totems will outnumber melee including bf
Support will outnumber melee including bf
Majority of chars will have more than 5k life or 5k es or combined total

Some form of totem or caster will be the opfotm meta due to a random unneeded buff to a caster gem

If I'm wrong about any of ONE those things and they don't get changed for next league you can also have all my stuff but they will get changed so I can't guarantee those. However the first 4 things I listed I'm 100% certain will be the case regardless of nerfs or buffs.

But if ALL of those things end up being the way I predicted, excluding balance changes by ggg on those specific ones I mentioned ONLY, you are no longer allowed to post on these forums.

Deal?

"

2 things I know for a fact won't happen:
Bf won't be a good hc build next season even though people think it will be, there will just be more people trying and they will probably all quit or die
Bf won't top sc until equipment for it becomes available, which will be long after every caster build in poe has completed shaper already

Honestly, Binos is avaible fairly early. And I doubt you need anything more than that. Just get a nice Utility Sceptre for Offhand (Death's Hand, Dark Seer or Singularity) and you are ready to go. You could also just put on an ES shield and go CI. There are lots of options. Also there are swords too which also have some decent options to use like Scaeva.

Essentially you will do the same as you would with Reave while just being better all around. It is basically an upgrade to Reave and a lot safer than Flicker Strike... and you might actually be able to play it without getting a Headache.

"

If there are more melee characters than casters in next hc temp league at the top 50 after a few days, you can have all my stuff across all leagues.

Well... that is already almost the case. Blade Vortex and Warchief make up a lot of the Ladder. And if they don't nerf Warchief the argument if Blade Vortex is actually Melee might not be that important, because it could be gone and Warchief makes up more of the Ladder with a bit of Earthquake. It will never be 50%, because this would require a lot of people playing Warchief because that is the only Melee Totem and it is a more boring selection.

So from the List you posted we had 44 Characters that actually are dealing damage. I'm pretty sure a support could even consider using Blade Flurry because it reaches so far, but there should be better options. Also 7 were private so we have to reduce it to 37. So if we look at skills that are actually melee we have:

7x Pathfinder and that's it. All the other skills aren't really all that Melee.

If we look at those that have the tag we have a total of 16, which isn't that far off from 50%... but again 16 skills have the tag melee and none of them is an actual melee skill. So if we would make such a bet we would face the impossible challange to actual define melee. Because we all know what it is, but if we make that bet, shouldn't we find a definition that actually includes Blade Flurry as melee and that is hard to do unless you only look at the tag, but this includes skills like Raging Spirits and Warchief which are both technically melee, but from the individual remotes location, not from your own (and for warchief even the later is debatable).

And as I mentioned before I would expect these two Lacerate dudes being Blade Flurry next league. So my bet would be 2 Blade Flurry chars, which is a much more likely outcome, considering that the Top50 always consists of a few oddballs, that just love their skills and have the time and knowledge to make them work. Kinetic Blast Miners or Firestorm Juggernauts are propably not Meta, but you will always have those builds in the Top50. And that for me is usually the issue. Even if I wanted to I could never play a BV char to an extent that it could reach Top50 because it is so boring. So if the Top50 gives an indiciation than that those builds that are up their are fun to play, because that seems the most important thing because you have to put a few hours... or days into them.