Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee

"

Boem wrote:

"

Turbodevil wrote:

And as I recently learned (thanks Boem!) double dips on DoTs.

Raics corrected me on this part, it's just dubiously worded, apparently the more only applies on the stacks itself.

Just correcting since i was wrong and wouldn't want to spread misinformation to far.

/carry on

Peace,

-Boem-

RESPECT

Wait five days and read the patch-notes, then if required resurrect this thread. . .

It's a pointless discussion.

1) every released skill is going to be favorably balanced, because it needs to be tested and GGG needs the data, nothing can be done against that.

2) the skill is in its initial testing phase, pre-league even, we know it's going to change in the future, GGG knows this and the form in which is all just speculation.

These last few pages are head-ache inducing to be honest.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

Wait five days and read the patch-notes, then if required resurrect this thread. . .

It's a pointless discussion.

1) every released skill is going to be favorably balanced, because it needs to be tested and GGG needs the data, nothing can be done against that.

2) the skill is in its initial testing phase, pre-league even, we know it's going to change in the future, GGG knows this and the form in which is all just speculation.

These last few pages are head-ache inducing to be honest.

Peace,

-Boem-

The point is to use a constructive discussion to help the devs balance a gem BEFORE the league starts, knowing that once released they won't nerf it mid-season. And frankly what I've seen with blade vortex, the "reave is a dual wield skill" comment, and "life is technically better than ES" comment, with all due respect to GGG I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to balance the gems without feedback from the community. They obviously have their hands tied with other things.

And lol @ headache-inducing, nobody is forcing you to read this thread.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

The point is to use a constructive discussion to help the devs balance a gem BEFORE the league starts, knowing that once released they won't nerf it mid-season.

Because claiming that BF isn't OP and doesn't need a nerf, since it just does as much damage as BV is constructive ?

Not really.

"

Boem wrote:

It's a pointless discussion.

A big part of this thread has been pretty pointless so far indeed.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

The point is to use a constructive discussion to help the devs balance a gem BEFORE the league starts, knowing that once released they won't nerf it mid-season.

Because claiming that BF isn't OP and doesn't need a nerf, since it just does as much damage as BV is constructive ?

Not really.

"

Boem wrote:

It's a pointless discussion.

A big part of this thread has been pretty pointless so far indeed.

It doesn't do BV levels of damage without dual wielding scourge afaik, and there are other spells besides BV doing that much damage. If you can produce evidence of BF doing that much damage without those claws by all means do so.

You seem to have a misconception that BF and BV are the only skills doing that much damage, you're very wrong. The guy in that video would probably be doing more damage with viper strike with that build.

you got me wrong I think.

All the interactions around BV make the skill gem ridiculous, but the damage itself is already over the top.
There are not many skills that allow one to facetank the biggest bosses using VP ( Viktar is prolly a culprit here too obv ).

So if a skill does already as much damage as BV, it is most likely too powerful ( I mean, it would be actually melee with drawbacks etc .... it would be pretty justified of course ).
If that skill on top of it isn't even a spell but an attack, and has a base range which is significantly higher .....

I already linked the Mathil video where he does quite ridiculous damage with an elemental dagger, and not a mirrored one, just a quite good rare one I think.
And elemental attacks are nothing like the meta.
Crit is pretty meta because it scale like crazy, but for attacks the biggest scaling is from big physical weapons. This isn't even the case here.

"

Fruz wrote:

you got me wrong I think.

All the interactions around BV make the skill gem ridiculous, but the damage itself is already over the top.
There are not many skills that allow one to facetank the biggest bosses using VP ( Viktar is prolly a culprit here too obv ).

So if a skill does already as much damage as BV, it is most likely too powerful ( I mean, it would be actually melee with drawbacks etc .... it would be pretty justified of course ).
If that skill on top of it isn't even a spell but an attack, and has a base range which is significantly higher .....

I already linked the Mathil video where he does quite ridiculous damage with an elemental dagger, and not a mirrored one, just a quite good rare one I think.
And elemental attacks are nothing like the meta.
Crit is pretty meta because it scale like crazy, but for attacks the biggest scaling is from big physical weapons. This isn't even the case here.

Where did you link the video? I haven't seen it.

EDIT: Found it. Can't even tell what's going on in that video because he doesn't show his gear. He shows his passive tree which is at level 88, it has some crit some ele and some phys, really generalist stuff but need to see the gear.

EDIT 2: saw him mouse over the dagger for a second, he has a T3 speed roll, T2 fire, T4 cold, and T2 lightning on the dagger, then mastercrafted crit. For those that want to know, I tried to find a dagger like that in standard league using 3x low-end T4 ele and low-end T4 speed:
http://poe.trade/search/yukotomauwodak
EDIT 3: got the search tool to work correctly on POE.trade, the dagger he's using is basically somewhere above 7ex. I was only able to find one unpriced dagger in standard league matching this description, and a slower one listed for 7ex. In essence I was able to find one with similar rolls selling for 25ex:
http://poe.trade/search/omahimomaukona

Knowing this doesn't disqualify the claims BF is OP, it just doesn't show anything useful. For comparison you can get that kind of damage and aoe out of a whispering ice build which the needed item costs 4alchs:
http://poe.trade/search/iyonanasinomki

TLDR: it's typical mathil stuff and doesn't actually indicate anything about balance.

Pretty good discussion except for the fact that you guys don't account for the incomming nerf hammer .

All you do right now is speculate , making the forums which are pretty much dead seem active to new players .

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

EDIT 2: saw him mouse over the dagger for a second, he has a T3 speed roll, T2 fire, T4 cold, and T2 lightning on the dagger, then mastercrafted crit. For those that want to know, I tried to find a dagger like that in standard league using 3x low-end T4 ele and low-end T4 speed:
http://poe.trade/search/yukotomauwodak
EDIT 3: got the search tool to work correctly on POE.trade, the dagger he's using is basically somewhere above 7ex. I was only able to find one unpriced dagger in standard league matching this description, and a slower one listed for 7ex. In essence I was able to find one with similar rolls selling for 25ex:
http://poe.trade/search/omahimomaukona

Knowing this doesn't disqualify the claims BF is OP, it just doesn't show anything useful. For comparison you can get that kind of damage and aoe out of a whispering ice build which the needed item costs 4alchs:
http://poe.trade/search/iyonanasinomki

Such daggers are indeed niche, that's why they are expensive.
But you can find slightly lower than this for much cheaper :
http://poe.trade/search/momomoikasukik

( I didn't check and calculate the actual ele damage of his dagger, from your search results I just picked a value a bit higher than the lowest, and I accounted for 8%+ crit on the dagger.
Giving that the attack speed / crit change could be master crafted, I don't think that finding a dagger with at least 2 good / very good ele roll + either inc AS or inc crit chance is that much of a big deal.

And as I said, elemental attacks are usually less powerful than full physical ones ( in the current meta, the physical scaling + the auras/heralds that come on top of it ... ).
The fact that it's a generalist tree also shows that it could potentially be stronger if specialized and min-maxed for BF.

That's just one example of a setup that is completely different from DW "the scourge", and still very strong.
Plus it gives him the advantage of using a shield, which is a big deal for ES user, and still quite a big deal for life users usually.

"

BestMageKR wrote:

Pretty good discussion except for the fact that you guys don't account for the incomming nerf hamme

The point is to show why the nerf hammer should happen ( or not for some ).

I mean, there's a pretty big difference a 300 edps dagger and a 200 edps dagger. IDK what mathil's was, but you need to keep in mind he's running around on a 5400 life SC suicide character using a better dagger than anything I could EVEN FIND, using a dying sun flask in addition to tons of other extremely expensive shit. It's just not indicative of what players will really see.

You can watch videos of people using whispering ice, bladefall traps, firestorm, flameblast etc deleting atziri just as quickly using equipment that you can basically find laying around on the floor. It takes MATHIL a shit ton of exalts just to get a little bit faster than those caster builds, and if you spent 25 exalts on a suicide char why shouldn't you be?

Keep in mind current chaos:exalt ratio in that league is like 65:1 which means his dagger costed him THOUSANDS of chaos. Trust me when I say the shit he's using DOESN'T EVEN EXIST in hardcore.