Labyrinth is for NEET.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Really?

"Hey i think lab excludes those types of builds."

"I don't see how? It includes those specific builds!" (so it's ok if it excluded the others)

Huh?

If you are "quoting" me then you are misquoting (and misunderstanding) me. You appear to interpret something into what I said which I neither said nor meant.


Lets give an example. You wrote: "A fully offensive build is troublesome for fighting izaro since you can't respawn if you die." Due to your statement being general in respect to fully offensive builds you imply that all fully offensive builds are bad vs Izaro. This is (IMO) false. And it was relevant for the "homogenization" argument. So I pointed it out.
If you would have said "Many fully offensive builds are troublesome for fighting izaro since you can't respawn if you die." I would have had no issue with it. But it does not support the homogenization argument either.

No i think you misunderstood what i said in the first place. I never denied the existence of hardcore or softcore viable lab builds.

But the freedom to do the extreme cases of builds is limited due to lab and it's a shame because PoE does provide that freedom in the main game. Therefore the homogenisation.

And it's not even the extreme cases. Example: My 95 char, 7500 life, max block+spellblock, 12k armor (all without any use of flasks), no extra charges, 3-4% regen. Ultra tanky, gets destroyed by traps in normal...

Traps are % of life and ES based, and most can't be mitigated, so yea basically everything gets destroyed by traps. The main problem with this is that life flasks suck, and can't compete with trap damage. Sort of condescendingly the best way to deal with traps is just go slower in areas that have them, and not get hit by traps.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Example: My 95 char, 7500 life, max block+spellblock, 12k armor (all without any use of flasks), no extra charges, 3-4% regen. Ultra tanky, gets destroyed by traps in normal...

Completely and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
It does not impact the viability of the build in the lab, all builds are supposed to be destroyed by traps, there are some builds that can cheese it tho, I hope that GGG will do something about it.

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Pyrokar wrote:

No i think you misunderstood what i said in the first place. I never denied the existence of hardcore or softcore viable lab builds.

But the freedom to do the extreme cases of builds is limited due to lab and it's a shame because PoE does provide that freedom in the main game. Therefore the homogenisation.

As I just pointed out with the miner example the lab does not take away all the extremes. So there is no strong (if any) homogenization due to lab. It can even be argued (see the miner example) that the lab is doing the opposite. You eiter kill Izaro before he can hit you or you need to be able to take him on defensively. This is a "polarization" of builds and not a "homogenization".

Yes, but in another example that miner gets hit, dies and never rolls a similar build again because he doesn't wanna keep rerunning the lab when he dies. Not much polarization there but homogenisation.

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Fruz wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

Example: My 95 char, 7500 life, max block+spellblock, 12k armor (all without any use of flasks), no extra charges, 3-4% regen. Ultra tanky, gets destroyed by traps in normal...

Completely and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
It does not impact the viability of the build in the lab, all builds are supposed to be destroyed by traps, there are some builds that can cheese it tho, I hope that GGG will do something about it.

Very relevant. Why would i roll a character with those kind of defences nowadays when all of them mean almost nothing against traps? Therefore homogenisation.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Yes, but in another example that miner gets hit, dies and never rolls a similar build again because he doesn't wanna keep rerunning the lab when he dies. Not much polarization there but homogenisation.

And then there is the dude who plays tanky builds. Can easily do Izaro. Traps dont even hurt. Gets bored to death and never rolls a similar build again because he doesnt wanna wait for 5 minutes until Izaro finally bites it.

And why dont you look at the daily ladders. The top positions (in softcore essence) are speed based.
The #1 (today so far) is hidden. The #2 is life based with Vaal Pact. No regen.

You are envisioning lab specific builds when answering to me and i already said that i am not talking about them.

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Very relevant. Why would i roll a character with those kind of defences nowadays when all of them mean almost nothing against traps? Therefore homogenisation.

The best defenses are high physical resistance low HP chars. Guess what is propably the least common played build. Yes dedicated lab runners usually are exactly this. But since they would be destroyed in any regular gameplay due to high elemental damage spikes those are rarely the OP builds.

So lets look at what we get. Dual Warchief Berserkers... oh wait... they aren't that great for traps due to taking extra damage, they do have additional mitigation as well which basically cancels each other out. Then we have CI or Lowlife Pathfinders... well CI is basically a free pass on traps due to only using 60% of the value to determine damage. Then we have some casters propably and they usually have high castspeed and can just LW through the lab, so again they have essentially a free pass. And we have those guys using bows (they are not necessarily rangers like the Doomfletch Templers) which often have a high enough movespeed to pass most of the traps quickly.

Lab actually does nothing to the viability of builds, because builds that can't do the lab wouldn't be able to even do more simple maps anyway. The Uberlab is a bit different, but again just doing it without additional keys isn't hard, it is basically a blank map and Izaro doesn't even hit that much harder like unmodified bosses of the same level. So if you have a build that can do all yellow maps with bosses, this build can do Uber lab. You might have to be a bit more careful and prepare a bit differently (there is hardly any elemental damage in the lab except for some Izaro mechanics) but it isn't much harder.