Labyrinth is for NEET.

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Docbp87 wrote:

Maybe changes haven't been made because GGG don't feel they need to change anything. I have a feeling that GGG thinks the lab is fine the way it is (as do I, and many other players). Players don't come here making loud threads to proclaim that "THE LAB IS JUST FINE LIKE IT IS. I EITHER DON'T MIND IT AT ALL, OR EVEN FIND IT TO BE A REWARDING EXPERIENCE"... which is why threads/posts bitching about the lab should be taken with a grain of salt. People don't come on the forum to rant and rave when they are happy with something the way it is...

And yet using every measurable standard that exists for the average person playing the game and active on the forums, all evidence points to the contrary. Interesting.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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Docbp87 wrote:

Maybe changes haven't been made because GGG don't feel they need to change anything. I have a feeling that GGG thinks the lab is fine the way it is (as do I, and many other players). Players don't come here making loud threads to proclaim that "THE LAB IS JUST FINE LIKE IT IS. I EITHER DON'T MIND IT AT ALL, OR EVEN FIND IT TO BE A REWARDING EXPERIENCE"... which is why threads/posts bitching about the lab should be taken with a grain of salt. People don't come on the forum to rant and rave when they are happy with something the way it is...

And yet using every measurable standard that exists for the average person playing the game and active on the forums, all evidence points to the contrary. Interesting.

No it isn't.

This is blatantly wrong, and the obvious thing is that you have absolutely nothing to back that claim, literally nothing.
The number of people being fine with the lab is something that you will never know, but actually the number of people not being fine with it is also another variable that you will never have. In short, you have nothing.

@Nenjin : Thank for share your experience of Labyrinth, I really appreciate it.

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Zrevnur wrote:

What exactly is your point? I do not see how the lab excludes a fully defensive build. Maybe some types of defensive builds. But there are fully defensive builds which are good in lab. Like CI ES regen tank. Especially if the player has a laggy connection.

You wrote "Going too defensive gets you no advantage against traps. Movement and attackspeed is a far better option." After writing about "hardcore build". Being lag resistent is a clear advantage for hardcore. So I really do not see your point at all. Your "Movement and attackspeed is a far better option." may make sense if dieing once in xxx runs is acceptable. But for hardcore a lag resistant regen tank simply has a significant advantage.
If you occasionally looked at the uber lab ladders for hardcore vs softcore you may have noticed a difference there. The hardcore ladders typically have more trap resistant ascendancies in them.

You get exactly get what i am saying since you are saying the same thing. What you said last is an example of homogenising builds. You just think it's ok to exclude some builds while i think that it's not.

Some like creativity. Some don't.

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Pyrokar wrote:

You get exactly get what i am saying since you are saying the same thing. What you said last is an example of homogenising builds.

I do believe I now understand what you meant. The number of viable builds is reduced. However what we see is not a "homogenizing". The viable builds do not become similar due to lab/etc. Instead there are fewer of them.
Example: On one hand we see a tanky slow build which can just ignore traps. On the other we see a fast build which can speed through them. They are very dissimilar so not "homogenized".

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Pyrokar wrote:

You just think it's ok to exclude some builds while i think that it's not.

Huh? How did you come to the conclusion that I think its ok to exclude some builds due to lab mechanics?

I just came to that conclusion because you said that lab excludes some defensive builds and continued with saying that it doesn't exclude some others.

If someone wants to do a fully offensive build, he can do it in the main game. A fully offensive build is troublesome for fighting izaro since you can't respawn if you die.
If someone wants to do a fully defensive build, he can do it in the main game. A fully defensive build it troublesome for dealing with traps unless it is a very specific one, since only one type of defense deals with all traps (regen).

Lab is like saying, hey i want you to have that amount of defense for izaro and that type of specific defense for traps. Also i want you to run this platformer minigame. You did it? Good boy, now get rewarded with ascendancy.

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

I love the circular argument people make to defend lab...

Casual: "I'm a casual player and I don't like this pseudo-hardcore crap."

Forum Whiteknight: "Then play slowly and carefully so you don't die."

Casual: "I have a job/spouse/kids/better shit to do, that's why I play casual. I can't dedicate hours to this shit."

Forum Whiteknight: "Then rush the lab, you can beat it in 10-15 minutes."

Casual: "You don't get it, I don't dedicate hours to this game because I play casual, so I don't have the GG gear and/or overlevel to rush."

Forum Whiteknight: "Then play slowly and..."

Long story short: Chris wants everyone to play HC, so everybody has to play HC. Even in Standard. There's no such thing as a "Standard build" anymore unless you literally do not give a single iota of a fuck and find it hilariously fun to softcap at level 60.

And there is again thing you are missing. Making Lab easier makes it complete non-challenge to everyone, except for the most casual players. If you can't do it, no matter what, and don't have time/will/attention span required, then you have to pass. Nobody will lower the bar for you, because you are unable to pass the test. Sorry.

And therefore, you simply can't please everyone. Playing softcore doesn't mean game will be easier. It only means you can die without losing your character. The game is still challenging, and you still need to know what you are doing.

For many players who spent a lot of time with PoE, most things are clear, and we get everything right 99% of time. Yet we are still challenged with weird rares, Izaro mechanics, traps and so on. This is what keeps us playing. If you make it D3 (or recent MU Legends, which seems to be going mow everything with 0 difficulty route) easy, we're out of here.

So you either want to be challenged and spend some time, or not. If you don't want to, they don't be challenged and pick something else, which requires less time/skill/investment and gives you the fun you want.

Ps. You circle argument is terrible. If you are unwilling to spend time playing and leveling up... why are you even playing an aRPG which is about grinding? If you don't have time to overlevel, do you have time to level up at all? How can one can have time to play and level up/get gear, and not have time to do the Lab when being overleveled?

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I just came to that conclusion because you said that lab excludes some defensive builds and continued with saying that it doesn't exclude some others.

Honestly which defensive builds are excluded? I could agree on Hybrids, they suck in the lab but they also suck in most other parts of the game, hybrid builds right now aren't that great and I did the lab in Perandus with a summoner having 4,5k HP and 3k ES and I wouldn't say he is excluded, he just can't ignore the traps like other builds can he actually has to avoid them.

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If someone wants to do a fully offensive build, he can do it in the main game. A fully offensive build is troublesome for fighting izaro since you can't respawn if you die.

It's also similarly troublesome in maps... but what exactly is a fully offensive build, not skilling any life or other defensive nodes? I doubt it. A lot of heavily offensive builds do just fine in the lab, exspecially since a lot of them are leaning right and have plenty of movespeed. They basically just use offensive stats because they lack good defensive options. They often just have the usual 4-5k HP and Acrobatics but lack any focus on high amounts of Evasion. So is there actually a fully offensive viable build outside the lab that terribly fails in the lab... I doubt it. The build likely fails as much in maps as it does in the lab.

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If someone wants to do a fully defensive build, he can do it in the main game. A fully defensive build it troublesome for dealing with traps unless it is a very specific one, since only one type of defense deals with all traps (regen).

Honestly a fully defensive build won't be any worse against traps than just any regular build. Your normal Caster won't have regen nor high MS and he propably deals fine with traps. A high defensive build also again might just lack DPS to deal with maps, a lot of bosses will simply overwhelm you after some time, regen faster than you can deal damage or depending on your defense ignore most of it (because of elemental damage as one example). Actually those Juggernaut Uberlabs are fully defensive builds, yes they have high physical resistance... but that's kinda what you do if you are fully defensive.

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Pyrokar wrote:

I just came to that conclusion because you said that lab excludes some defensive builds and continued with saying that it doesn't exclude some others.

I dont see the logic...

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Pyrokar wrote:

If someone wants to do a fully offensive build, he can do it in the main game. A fully offensive build is troublesome for fighting izaro since you can't respawn if you die.

Never played a miner build. But from my understanding it goes like:
1) place mines (very easy with Izaro due to the long windup)
2) start circling
3) Izaro becomes targetable
4) detonate mines
5) continue cirling
6) Izaro dies from poison
7) collect loot

Barring (major) human error or technical failure there is "no" potential for you getting hit by Izaro before he dies.

Of course this can not be said for all "fully offensive" builds. Just for some specific ones which are "Izaro compatible".

This may be risky in hardcore to some degree due to threat of technical problems etc. But any "fully offensive" build is bad in hardcore for that reason.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Lab is like saying, hey i want you to have that amount of defense for izaro and that type of specific defense for traps. Also i want you to run this platformer minigame. You did it? Good boy, now get rewarded with ascendancy.

It severly limits the spectrum of "viable" (for average players) builds. But I do not think it forces one into a single type of build. Especially not in softcore.

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Emphasy wrote:

Honestly a fully defensive build won't be any worse against traps than just any regular build.
<...>
A high defensive build also again might just lack DPS to deal with maps,

Lack of DPS hurts vs Sentinels in uber lab. And it makes dealing with the fire floor areas (where you may have to kill stuff to progress through) difficult. Or at least very slow. The fire floor uber trial is pretty bad for a "lab incompatible" defensive build.

Really?

"Hey i think lab excludes those types of builds."

"I don't see how? It includes those specific builds!" (so it's ok if it excluded the others)