Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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mark1030 wrote:

Where did shovelcut Claim to know what people were thinking? I must have missed it. All I heard him say was that you can't know what they were thinking and claiming you can (by using the words "known fact") is not valid.

Edit: And since were pulling out dictionaries, why did you conveniently leave out the second definition of bully in your link? The one that says:

"

A noisy, blustering fellow, more insolent than courageous; one who is threatening and quarrelsome; an insolent, tyrannical fellow.

So people in weaker positions can't be noisy, blustering, insolent, threatening, or quarrelsome? And no one in your list of lab haters is showing any signs of any of that?

Shovelcut said,

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Shovelcut wrote:

Other than the obvious use of threads that serve no purpose other than to artificially inflate the total number of laby hate threads. It actually hurts the anti-laby movement because if any of the devs actually care enough to look thru the list, they have to wade thru a ton of shit posts before they reach the feedback gold that is in there.

In defining an apparently large block of labyrinth threads he said they "serve no purpose other than to artificially inflate the total number of laby hate threads". There are many possible reasons for people posting threads that Shovelcut doesn't like, agree with, and thinks have no purpose other than artificially inflating the total number of laby hate threads. The reason people do things is their purpose for doing it. Other examples of a purpose to post such a thread might be

1. Just to piss off Shovelcut or Mark1030 or someone else
2. Just to express one's general frustration or distaste with the labyrinth game play
3. Just to remind GGG that they don't like labyrinth
4. Just because it was Sunday and they hadn't had a shower shower yet (as a silly example meaning I'm sure there are plenty of other purposes possible that I haven't thought of)

I suspect that 1, 2, and 3 are all more likely the intended purpose of the thread and cathartic than them wanting to artificially inflate the total number of laby hate threads. I assert that people usually do things like that for a cathartic purpose and so would guess those three potential purposes are much more likely.

Regarding the second definition of bully, I apologize for missing that definition.

You guys need to put this bullshit argument to bed already. My earlier statement remains as true now as it did then.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

It is not credible to argue that someone had many dozens of alt accounts stowed away prior to the release of labyrinth, March 2016, so that they could compromise a list that was first created by Zaludoz on September 14, 2016, https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1702621/page/49.

That was never the argument, the point is that you going thru the list and checking creation dates and making an absolute statement such as "there are only 3 or 4 alt accounts" is absolutely meaningless and baseless. Yeah, many players had multiple accounts created before March 2016 most likely as mule accounts.

Say what you will, I know someone who has 30+ accounts made before that date and he's likely not the only one. I have 3 myself, 5 if you include both of my sons accounts.

Am I saying that they are using them for nefarious purposes? Nope, just stating a fact.

What is not credible is going thru the creation dates and saying that because they were created prior to March they cannot be alt accounts. This is the only point I'm trying to refute. It's just pointing out that your method is flawed.

If you think that more than a handful of people are acting in bad faith and dishonestly pretending to be more than one person, then yeah, that's probably a little paranoid.

But that's fine. The vocal minority actively defending the labyrinth in these threads could very well be doing the exact same thing, so it's a wash. But I doubt there are many in that camp doing it either.

The accusation is equally silly no matter which side you apply it to.

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Turtledove wrote:

The reason people do things is their purpose for doing it. Other examples of a purpose to post such a thread might be

1. Just to piss off Shovelcut or Mark1030 or someone else
2. Just to express one's general frustration or distaste with the labyrinth game play
3. Just to remind GGG that they don't like labyrinth
4. Just because it was Sunday and they hadn't had a shower shower yet (as a silly example meaning I'm sure there are plenty of other purposes possible that I haven't thought of)

Or 5. Because someone made a thread to keep track of how many anti-laby threads there are who spammed it in multiple threads to gain more traction. Thus initiating even more spam (useless) anti-laby threads. But just like #'s 1-4 it's just a guess.

The fact that those threads were even included in the list just goes to show that they're being used to artificially inflate the number of threads, along with knowingly adding alt accounts to the list of names.

If calling out questionable practices is "going low" then so be it.

@gibbousmoon The only person acting in bad faith atm is Turtledove with his blatantly incorrect "facts". This is the only thing mark and I are arguing against. Nobody has suggested anything about any group of people, it boils down to one person making provably wrong statements and trying to pass them off as undeniable fact. So it's not a bullshit argument, it's quite valid.

I'm pretty sure we're all aware that there is a small handful of people posting on alt accounts, nobody in this current discussion has even implied that it is more than a few. So I'll just chalk it up to you missing our point. :)

Edit: To be perfectly clear, I never claimed to know what those posters had in mind when they hit the submit button. What I am claiming is that the person maintaining this thread is doing some underhanded shit in a desperate attempt to push his agenda.

funny thing: Turtle, youve managed to insult GGG several times, participate in shit-eating debates, antagonized people that were sympathetic to your cause and now you are creating some sort of a passive petition

you know that you - no matter what youll do in the future - already made your mark. by insulting and berating work of GGG. nothing you do now will change that. would you care if people that smeared sh.. on your front door afterwards created a petition asking you to cut down trees on your possession? would you care? or maybe laugh at their wasted effort

you wanted to change something. we all do from time to time. but you started to insult and antagonize EVERYONE except few same-minded + alts. the moment you started doing that - youve lost. this petition and obsessive act of collecting new 'members' is at this time close to being a health hazard because how anyone can believe this petition/spam will change ANYTHING when the people in charge were repeatedly offended and insulted?

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Shovelcut wrote:

I'm pretty sure we're all aware that there is a small handful of people posting on alt accounts, nobody in this current discussion has even implied that it is more than a few. So I'll just chalk it up to you missing our point. :)

With this new piece of information you provide, I have to agree with you: I do not understand your point. What IS your point?

If you don't think more than a handful of people are acting in bad faith and dishonestly pretending to be more than one person, then this whole scene about "that's not a legitimate list, there are alts on that list, etc." becomes completely irrelevant.

So what is the point of spending so much time on that topic?

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If you don't think more than a handful of people are acting in bad faith and dishonestly pretending to be more than one person, then this whole scene about "that's not a legitimate list, there are alts on that list, etc." becomes completely irrelevant.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Your opinion on this is completely irrelevant because it's not even what we're discussing at this point.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

What IS your point?

If you haven't gotten it with it being spelled out over the course of like 3 pages there is little hope that you'll get it with any further explanation but I'll try anyway.

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I started looking at some other data. An "o" after the name means the account is older than March 2016. A "$" after the name means that a supporter title is in the profile. An "*" after the name means that neither of those is the case. This was done in response to paranoid people that said I or someone else was creating alt accounts just to up the numbers on the list. This irrational argument has been soundly laid to rest because there are fewer than 4% of the accounts with an *. None of the above (o,$ nor *) means that I haven't gotten to that part of the list yet.

The quote above this is completely dishonest and wholly useless. There is absolutely no way that Turtle could ever know anything he's claiming as fact in that quote. This is the only thing that we've been discussing at this point. And the claims that there are only 3 or 4 alt accounts which are proven because of this "other data".

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gibbousmoon wrote:

So what is the point of spending so much time on that topic?

-In a nutshell- I've spent quite a bit of time coming up with the analysis used in the OP so that we would have some factual numbers to make this thread and further laby discussions honest (in regard to numbers of people posting). That has been undermined by the current dishonest path that the OP has taken and I feel strongly about it. To top it off, upon calling out the deception I'm accused of dancing around the facts while the accuser is literally dancing around the actual facts. We wouldn't have had to waste so much time on this but someone just likes to avoid actual conversation to make his own accusations while ignoring the actual topic of the conversation.

That enough for you?

If not, feel free to go back through everything. Or not, I personally don't care at this point.

3.0 can't come fast enough...

Not to derail the discussion on alts and multiple-thread-starters (though that might be a good thing ;) and somewhat on the topic of this thread, there's a recent post on reddit complaining about how tedious it is to play through the game three times. The poster also mentions parenthetically at the end the "abomination known as the labyrinth".

In the comments, one CAPSONLY is relieved to discover he's not the only one who hates the lab:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/5lap5r/3_playthroughs_every_single_time_is_dreadful/dbuac8j/?

Perhaps there's a slight chance that Chris will see that reddit thread and pause a little (because he sure as hell won't see this one).

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Shovelcut wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If you don't think more than a handful of people are acting in bad faith and dishonestly pretending to be more than one person, then this whole scene about "that's not a legitimate list, there are alts on that list, etc." becomes completely irrelevant.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Your opinion on this is completely irrelevant because it's not even what we're discussing at this point.

Ah, the classic "I can't provide a legitimate answer to your query so I will attempt to insult you instead" response.

Your words and attitude reflect upon you far more than upon anyone else, Shovelcut. Take from that what you will.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If you don't think more than a handful of people are acting in bad faith and dishonestly pretending to be more than one person, then this whole scene about "that's not a legitimate list, there are alts on that list, etc." becomes completely irrelevant.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Your opinion on this is completely irrelevant because it's not even what we're discussing at this point.

Ah, the classic "I can't provide a legitimate answer to your query so I will attempt to insult you instead" response.

Your words and attitude reflect upon you far more than upon anyone else, Shovelcut. Take from that what you will.

For several pages we have clearly been disputing the claim that "known fact" instead of "I think" is used. Nothing else. You guys keep pretending we are arguing about the number of alt account. We are not. We are arguing that turtle claims he knows for a fact it's a specific number when he is just assuming. His method of proof is unreliable and doesn't prove shit as I've shown by revealing an alt account of mine that by his standard would be a legit unique person eith a "o" and "$" rating. If turtle would just replace his words from "known fact" to "I think", the last several pages trying to explain the issue would not exist. And you accusing somebody of "I can't provide a legit response so I'll insult you instead" is rich when you've tried to insult us by saying we're paranoid about how many alt accounts there are. We don't care how many there are. We don't care if there are none at all. We only are calling for somebody to stop staying they have "facts" and "proof" about how many there are. The quote marks are because those words were used by the person making the claim, not meant to be sarcastic air quotes. And those words are the ones in dispute. But you keep acting like our argument is "how many", which is the only argument you can respond to.

i dont like the labyrinth.
in essence league i played to lv 86 and didnt even finish normal lab :D.

one of the reasons why i dont like the labyrinth is because it is forced on me as part of my char progression.

another one is that i mostly play as scion and the scion ascendancy is the worst, scion might as well have no ascendancy compared to what the other classes get.
so i play content wich i dont like but it is forced on me only then to feel bad because the reward is bad

then one other issue is that the lab by itself is nice actually with traps and hidden rooms and puzzles to unlock doors for supply/treasure chests, but the game just does not support that kind of gameplay because the movement and the movement skills feel so bad and are so inaccurate.

in Perandus league there were at least challenges to explore the labyrinth now ist just rushing through for the points and/or the emperor treasure chest/s.