Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

What's the point of a post like this?
Let's see... (wall of text inbound)
This is how I see it.


Let's understand Feedback and Suggestions first.
In games that are online (this game is online), and are being updated on a regular basis (this game is still being updated), and its developers attempt to say they're listening to what their players want to some degree (they have a feedback and suggestions forum, and they say they read reddit and watch some streamers), there is the understanding that the game makers want to see the feedback and suggestions being offered by their players.

A forum's population is a subset of the general game's population. I wouldn't call it a representative population, since they care more about the game than those who simply play it (that's not an all-inclusive statement, but a generalization based on the level of involvement with the game that goes beyond just enjoying their time spent playing it). They're usually most interested in news and updates, and care about other players experience in the game, and come to discuss what they like and dislike about the game, and find help in playing it better. (finding guides and tech support) The point is, in general, this population cares about the game and wants to discuss everything about it.

Feedback is inherently a personal opinion based on personal experience. Feedback can be positive or negative, both can be constructive. Negative feedback can be good for a game if the game makers use it properly. (positive feedback can be damaging to a product, if it's not in the best interest of the future of the game) Negative feedback often puts someone on the defensive if they have a vested interest in the success of the thing receiving a harsh remark about it. Feedback about a game is usually given by people who care about the game, and want to see its future success, otherwise they'd probably remain silent or just "live with it," or move on, if it's negative. (never hearing why a person leaves the game is damaging to the future of the game.)

Feedback does not require response from other players. It is intended for the game developers. Your personal experience does not change the validity of another person's experience. I can love something in the game, and you can hate it. Both are valid opinions. Neither one should love or hate it because of the other's opinion. Ideally, a game won't have things people hate in it, or at least, those parts would be optional, and if someone hates it, they don't have to experience it. The more things that people hate about a game that they can't avoid, the faster they get frustrated with a game and don't enjoy it, and end up leaving, despite loving everything else.

Suggestions are the next step beyond feedback. A person cares enough about the situation to think: "What would I do if I were the game company and I understood the issue that I see here the way I see it?" ... and then come to a conclusion:"Yes, this is what I'd do." Now, the point of view and the solution offered may not take all variables into consideration, or it may only result in good for that individual, while negatively impacting how someone else plays the game. Some suggestions are just "anything is better than what we have" style outbursts (still valuable to hear).

However, it is not the responsibility of a person giving feedback or suggestions to be a professional game developer. A person knows whether they are having fun or not. Doesn't take a degree or job position to tell you that. A person's feedback is not "wrong". A person's suggestion might not be ideal for the game, and need tweaking. Sometimes, when other variables are introduced to a suggestion's context, the suggestion is no longer needed, or it changes the understanding of the issue at hand, and the reason the suggestion was proposed in the first place. (this is where forum conversations can be useful again)

---
Ok, that might clear up a few misunderstandings I've noticed as I've read these boards, but there's more, and this gets to the point of why a thread like this one exists at all.

Arguments in threads on this "feedback and suggestions" forum can devolve to "your feedback or suggestion isn't worth talking about, because only a few people care about it." Or, "the developers shouldn't waste their development time on something that only impacts a few people. There are bigger problems to worry about." (there is even the case of: "we're a minority, and we don't like what the majority like, so don't force it on us.")

Variations on these can be found all over.
---

A single person may have a suggestion that would make the game better to them. That single person's suggestion is valuable. If the developers agree, that one post could spark such an implementation in the game. As has been stated before, there is no democracy or voting to make decisions here. That 1 person's suggestion was enough in such a case. (no majority needed, not even a vocal minority, unless you count that one person's suggestion as a vocal minority)

Debating the pros and cons of suggestions leads to getting more viewpoints on a topic and helps refine the basic suggestion to a more and more usable state, which may or may not help the developers decided to use, or be inspired by, such suggestions. That's healthy enough for a game community.

This particular topic has drawn out the criticism that not enough people "hate" the labyrinth, or don't find enough things wrong with it, for it to be worth talking about. Which boils down to, "Shut up and live with it, we do. And we even love it!" (trying to impose their experience onto others, in effect, calling the other personal experiences "wrong".)


This particular thread is in response to those erroneous statements that are trying to shut down any conversation about the Labyrinth. It demonstrates that the topic is more prevalent than they like to think. It is a topic worth discussing, and the developers should take note. It does not attempt to demonstrate a majority. It does not need to.

This thread should not need to exist, but enough claims were made about the subject only mattering to a couple dozen people, that it seemed appropriate. The list continuing to grow is showing that the issue hasn't just blown over as people get used to it as being a core part of the game and accepting it.

I have recently learned that some people actually pay others to carry them through the Labyrinth, so they get their ascendancy points easily.

I can't help but wonder how many, among those who are so loudly against the idea of providing alternate ways to get the ascendancy points, have been part in such transactions.

"

Erasculio wrote:

I have recently learned that some people actually pay others to carry them through the Labyrinth, so they get their ascendancy points easily.

I can't help but wonder how many, among those who are so loudly against the idea of providing alternate ways to get the ascendancy points, have been part in such transactions.

I can't speak for the others but I have helped many people through just about every difficulty of the laby and have never asked for compensation of any kind or accepted any tips.

@Zaludoz - Excellent post! Many others could do well by reading and understanding what you've had to say here.

@Shovelcut - Thank You for your kindness to others. Makes the game a better place

"

Erasculio wrote:

I have recently learned that some people actually pay others to carry them through the Labyrinth, so they get their ascendancy points easily.

I can't help but wonder how many, among those who are so loudly against the idea of providing alternate ways to get the ascendancy points, have been part in such transactions.

I don't think that I have ever carried anybody through the lab like this, and if I had .... that would proably be a friend or someone that I am just "helping", not selling services to.

Don't know about the others tho.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Erasculio wrote:

I have recently learned that some people actually pay others to carry them through the Labyrinth, so they get their ascendancy points easily.

I can't help but wonder how many, among those who are so loudly against the idea of providing alternate ways to get the ascendancy points, have been part in such transactions.

I don't think that I have ever carried anybody through the lab like this, and if I had .... that would proably be a friend or someone that I am just "helping", not selling services to.

Don't know about the others tho.

There are quite a few people earning their virtual money by way of lab carries.

One of which is a good friend of mine. Since the uber lab has been introduced, he is creating his first character in a league to be able to carry people through the uber lab as quickly as possible. I can't say for sure how much "money" he makes, and he does a good job of not telling the exact amount. What he did tell me though is, that he has no issues making 1 mirror per weekend, in a league scenario, including enchants and whatnot. I bet my favourite pair of high heels he can make a LOT more than that if he really no-lifed two days per week.

Case in point: Lab-carries are very lucrative, and those who can stand watching this place for extended periods of time can get rich. Like, filthy rich...

"

This thread should not need to exist, but enough claims were made about the subject only mattering to a couple dozen people, that it seemed appropriate. The list continuing to grow is showing that the issue hasn't just blown over as people get used to it as being a core part of the game and accepting it.

Yet they still seem to care enough to post about the topic daily, so either these dozen or so people are on a crusade to get it changed, when every single indication from devs indicate otherwise then idk what exactly they are trying to accomplish.

Feedback is feedback, bumping threads with the same responses over and over again however, is not feedback, especially when nothing has changed in the otherwise.

If people were sitting here discussing the recent information, such as GGG clearly showing the lab and AC rewards for the xbox 1 version being in the lab then that would be something I can see being relevant and worth an additional post from these people. Hell, even discussion on how we think GGG is going to re-allocate the points with the removal of cruel would be relevant, but these people that hate the lab are just pounding the same "points" that GGG has already dismissed, seeing as its been many patches and we've seen no changes.

"

Zaludoz wrote:

What's the point of a post like this?
Let's see... (wall of text inbound)
This is how I see it.

...[snip more REALLY good thoughts]...


This particular thread is in response to those erroneous statements that are trying to shut down any conversation about the Labyrinth. It demonstrates that the topic is more prevalent than they like to think. It is a topic worth discussing, and the developers should take note. It does not attempt to demonstrate a majority. It does not need to.

This thread should not need to exist, but enough claims were made about the subject only mattering to a couple dozen people, that it seemed appropriate. The list continuing to grow is showing that the issue hasn't just blown over as people get used to it as being a core part of the game and accepting it.

EXACTLY!!!

"

Turtledove wrote:

"

Zaludoz wrote:

What's the point of a post like this?
Let's see... (wall of text inbound)
This is how I see it.

...[snip more REALLY good thoughts]...


This particular thread is in response to those erroneous statements that are trying to shut down any conversation about the Labyrinth. It demonstrates that the topic is more prevalent than they like to think. It is a topic worth discussing, and the developers should take note. It does not attempt to demonstrate a majority. It does not need to.

This thread should not need to exist, but enough claims were made about the subject only mattering to a couple dozen people, that it seemed appropriate. The list continuing to grow is showing that the issue hasn't just blown over as people get used to it as being a core part of the game and accepting it.

EXACTLY!!!

In terms of it being more prevalent, I have a challenge. How about the people that post about the lab on a daily bases stop doing so and see how many new people post. For 1 week or whatever.