Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

I'm going to request this thread to be locked. It's been nothing but back and forth accusations and mud throwing for the last 20+ pages and Lab isn't going to change anyway.

This is not doing anyone any good anymore.

I cannot disagree, but a request for a thread lock by someone who is

A. not the thread's author

and

B. an outspoken opponent of that thread's message

is tasteless at best. And that's being kind to you.

Based on those two facts alone, your request will likely be denied by GGG.

What's that? Was that the word "likely" being used? You're learning! Good. That's good.

I'm not even expecting GGG to read this thread, let alone my request, but I'm doing it for more that reason alone. You see, when someone is pointing out that things are getting out of hand and should stop, in a neutral way like I did, the ones causing it are far more likely to stop than if I said something more directly opposing.

So locked or not, the effect is the sonewhat achieved. At very least the message got through. ;)

"

There is nothing blameworthy about not understanding something, including the point of this thread (enumerated in the OP). People misunderstand things all the time (and I am no exception, for the record).

The number 1 issue, is that it is not too clear what this thread should do.

It is essentially a collection of lab complaints. Those complaints might be valid or not, and the thing is that depends entirely on the individual complaint. To make things worse this thread uses complaints to which GGG already reacted, which a) proofs that they do care about those complaints and b) means that those complaints don't actually fit any of the points this thread has and are just included for volume.

If someone makes a thread about Trials being obnoxious, not rewarding and very repetitive, this is fine. And it is a solid base for discussion because it is something I do believe GGG can improve upon. With 3.0 we could actually get our first 2 ascendancies just for doing all 6 Trials, because why not, we have 2 spare with one less difficulty, but we could also just learn the traps in the normal difficulty lab and add checkpoints into this first lab and hand out 4 points there, again a reasonable approach.

If someone makes a thread that Uber trials are too random and unnecessarily block entrance to the uber lab it is also something that can be discussed and making trials biased towards the ones you are missing or adding Prohpecies that spawn specific trials would be a solution to that.

So the issues of this thread are:

a) That the different threads are sometimes about opposing ideals, someone complaining about not having access is not necessarily in the same camp as someone making a thread called "Lab sucks"

b) That someone making a thread about bugged layouts or having to do the trials on every character in a league might not have any other beef with the lab and could even be enjoying it after those things were fixed

c) Even someone complaining about a still existing issues like the having to do those trials at all might still not mind the lab

So overall the huge amount of different oppinions of which many are likely present in those collected thread might mean that forming one agenda out of them is just outright impossible there could be:

a) People that just hate the lab
b) People that dislike Trials, but like the lab
c) People that dislike the hardcore aspect of the lab
d) People that want certain specific improvements (like more reliable enchants)
e) People that raised critical issues that were actually adressed

And even within those that just generally like the trap there are multiple people

a) People that like it because Izaro is too hard for having only one try, but don't mind the traps
b) People that dislike Traps, but enjoy or don't mind Izaro
c) People that feel the lab is too long
d) People that die to trash mobs in the lab (well actually there might be only one, but it is too funny not to include)
e) People that are not even really able to name what they don't like

And even the ones not having any agenda with the lab are vastly split

a) People that enjoy the lab
b) People that don't mind it's flaws
c) People that simply don't give a shit (those are the ones not participating at all in any discussion)
d) People that feel that GGG will improve on it like they did in the past
and propably a few others

Making one thread and fit all of them in there is just stupid, because even if you add all those people in the OP together you will likely not get a cohesive message. This thread actually might even be a distraction to the fixable issues the lab does have.

My main issue with it is that I spend 30-40 minutes running this lab only to die and have nothing to show. No loot, lost XP, it absolutely sucks. At least give me a couple chances if I do stuff up, the XP loss is already enough.

"

heyimsu wrote:

My main issue with it is that I spend 30-40 minutes running this lab only to die and have nothing to show. No loot, lost XP, it absolutely sucks. At least give me a couple chances if I do stuff up, the XP loss is already enough.

Heyimsu, thank you for posting your feedback. Not having any portals or checkpoints is a common complaint in the labyrinth shared by many. It's the only part of the game that behaves like this and it really increases the frustration in the labyrinth because it puts a dark cloud over the whole experience knowing that if one dies or is disconnected that the whole horrible experience has to be started over from the beginning.

One thing I did to show my displeasure to GGG was that I stopped donating money and have not donated a dime to GGG since they introduced the labyrinth in 2.2.

I've added you to the list of people that feel that the labyrinth should be changed/improved/changed/fixed. You're the 700th account name added to the list. As the list grows longer our voices get stronger.

There are some silly people on the forum that indicated I'm making up this list and that it only represents a handful of people running hundreds of accounts. To try and help them recover from their paranoia I'll copy your profile information here.

Joined:
Jan 26, 2013

Last Visited:
Jan 9, 2017

Total Forum Posts:
5 (0 posts per day)

You have high level characters, an account creation date prior to the release of labyrinth, you've made a financial contribution to earn a supporter title, and you have 3 posts prior to the release of labyrinth. These are all strong indicators that you are not my alt account (as the most recent peddler of the conspiracy theory seemed to indicate that it was just me running this whole conspiracy on my own). I can safely assert that you are not an alt account and represent yourself as a separate person on the list. I hope that people believing in such silly fantastical conspiracy theories can soon start the healing process for their own good.

I'm glad to see the list continuing to be updated.

The original point of my addition to this thread, was to counter the absurd claims that some had made, that only a handful of posters wanted changes to the Labyrinth (max suggested was like 20 or so). I wanted to blow that claim out of the water by personally going through the threads that had been posted up to the point when I made my list, and collecting names of people who had issues with the Labyrinth and wanted change (whether they like the Labyrinth or not was not considered when placed in this context.)

The benefit of this thread is to show GGG that there are issues with the Labyrinth that need to be addressed. Everything is not "OK", and it shouldn't just be ignored while they move on to work on more new features of the game, like they have done so many times in the past.

There are many aspects of the Labyrinth system in general that have been pointed out. Some HAVE been addressed, others ignored. It is beneficial to have a record kept of all Labyrinth issues.

Some that were addressed lead to people enjoying the Labyrinth more. If the ignored issues can be addressed, even more would be happy. (many suggestions would not negatively impact those who want no change, unless they financially benefit from people not liking the Labyrinth.)


I hope something changes with the acquisition of Ascendancy Points, soon. I've stopped playing until then. (my suggestion is in my post history and the big thread on that subject)

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Turtledove wrote:

Shovelcut is just plain lying when he claims that I said "I don't like the laby. Neither does this list of people I have here, and someone gave me the idea that they believed there were alt accounts posting on the subject. I have gone through every account and determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are only 3 or 4 alts. My analysis is irrefutable. That is a bullshit lie and proves how full of shit this man is." Plain and simple, Shovelcut is plain lying.

Oh so gibbous can condense the conversation in a half truth kind of way but if I do it I'm just a bald faced liar? Yeah ok.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Turtledove: I don't like broccoli. Neither does this list of people I have here.

"

Turtledove wrote:

lie #2 I said there were maybe 3 or 4 obvious alt accounts and gave the example of someone posting from an account that was created December 20, 2016. The beyond a shadow of a doubt is just more of Shovelcut's despicable lies. There is no proof that these 3 or 4 accounts are duplicates for people already in the list.

And then you responded to lagwin and gave the impression that by you going thru all the accounts and marking them based on creation date and supporter packs, that you could tell if they were alts or not. Your reply directly implies that you have confirmed it's 690 different accounts.

"

Turtledove wrote:

One could easily compare Zaludoz list of 582 and look at the 117 account names that I added to it and see if there are any strange things. Shovelcut won't do that. He'd rather cast vague aspersions and dabble in partially formed conspiracy theories.

Why would I want to do that to begin with? Looking at a list of account names would be a pointless endeavor for any of us players.
*looks at list of names*
Yep, can't tell shit from looking at it. Might as well be looking at random pages in the phone book.

"

Turtledove wrote:

The point is that the main point of the list is to prove that it is not only a small handful of people posting. Other people have made that accusation not just Shovelcut. Shovelcut just seems to be latest caught up into the paranoid fantasy.

You know, at the beginning I may have said it's just a handful of people. But then I went thru every single fucking thread you linked and made my own list of people that posted, as proof to both you and I that there is without a doubt no way that it's a handful of people. So continuing to act like that is what I believe is you continuing your deception.

Here's the feedback GGG sees:

Of the 690 posters listed, 326 were flagged by turtledove with a $ meaning a supporter pack shown.

Of those 326 (well 324 since 1 account wasn't found (guessing deleted) and 1 didn't show a supporter (guessing hidden after turtle looked):

216 display supporter packs were from Prophecy and forward, which is a full release after the labyrinth was introduced in 2.2.0. I didn't include the Ascendency supporter packs in the list since they could be purchased before experiencing the labyrinth so could have been purchased based on the satisfaction of the previous release.

Additionally, of those 216 supporters, 129 show a 2.5.0 supporter pack (96 Breachlord and 33 Breachspawn).

Obviously it's a fact even including the labyrinth that 66% of those supporters still like the game enough to fork over at least $30. And obviously the numbers don't reflect those who don't display their supporter titles or those who support with points packs and not supporter packs.

Disclaimer that I copied the list in the OP this morning and won't include people added after that.

"

mark1030 wrote:

Here's the feedback GGG sees:

Of the 690 posters listed, 326 were flagged by turtledove with a $ meaning a supporter pack shown.

Of those 326 (well 324 since 1 account wasn't found (guessing deleted) and 1 didn't show a supporter (guessing hidden after turtle looked):

216 display supporter packs were from Prophecy and forward, which is a full release after the labyrinth was introduced in 2.2.0. I didn't include the Ascendency supporter packs in the list since they could be purchased before experiencing the labyrinth so could have been purchased based on the satisfaction of the previous release.

Additionally, of those 216 supporters, 129 show a 2.5.0 supporter pack (96 Breachlord and 33 Breachspawn).

Obviously it's a fact even including the labyrinth that 66% of those supporters still like the game enough to fork over at least $30. And obviously the numbers don't reflect those who don't display their supporter titles or those who support with points packs and not supporter packs.

Disclaimer that I copied the list in the OP this morning and won't include people added after that.

I stand corrected, nice bit of research there Mark. :)

"

mark1030 wrote:

Here's the feedback GGG sees:

Of the 690 posters listed, 326 were flagged by turtledove with a $ meaning a supporter pack shown.

Of those 326 (well 324 since 1 account wasn't found (guessing deleted) and 1 didn't show a supporter (guessing hidden after turtle looked):

216 display supporter packs were from Prophecy and forward, which is a full release after the labyrinth was introduced in 2.2.0. I didn't include the Ascendency supporter packs in the list since they could be purchased before experiencing the labyrinth so could have been purchased based on the satisfaction of the previous release.

Additionally, of those 216 supporters, 129 show a 2.5.0 supporter pack (96 Breachlord and 33 Breachspawn).

Obviously it's a fact even including the labyrinth that 66% of those supporters still like the game enough to fork over at least $30. And obviously the numbers don't reflect those who don't display their supporter titles or those who support with points packs and not supporter packs.

Disclaimer that I copied the list in the OP this morning and won't include people added after that.

Interesting analysis, Thank you!!

"

Shovelcut wrote:

And then you responded to lagwin and gave the impression that by you going thru all the accounts and marking them based on creation date and supporter packs, that you could tell if they were alts or not. Your reply directly implies that you have confirmed it's 690 different accounts.

I think this might be the crux of the issue and have stated that belief multiple times in this thread but you keep stubbornly denying it. I might have given you and Mark1030 that impression but that was not my intent or even thought at the time. It is plainly ridiculous to claim that one could prove that out of a list of almost 700 random accounts one could prove that there are absolutely no alt accounts. Plus even more ridiculous I admitted that there appeared to maybe be 3 or 4 obvious alt accounts. It is also patently ridiculous to think that one must prove that there's no alt accounts to disprove lagwin's conclusion. As mentioned the list proves the conclusion false. The only reasonable way that I could imagine that many hundreds of accounts in the list are all alt accounts is if someone started creating alt accounts just to pad the list. The analysis of account creation dates proves that didn't happen.

"

Shovelcut wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

One could easily compare Zaludoz list of 582 and look at the 117 account names that I added to it and see if there are any strange things. Shovelcut won't do that. He'd rather cast vague aspersions and dabble in partially formed conspiracy theories.

Why would I want to do that to begin with? Looking at a list of account names would be a pointless endeavor for any of us players.
*looks at list of names*
Yep, can't tell shit from looking at it. Might as well be looking at random pages in the phone book.

Not true, as pointed out multiple times in this thread by me when I describe the number of posts made by accounts prior to the release of labyrinth, etc. Also shown by Mark1030 in his very recent analysis. You were the one that stated explicitly that I was being deceitful and was manipulating the list on my own without requiring any others. An analysis of how many posts were made prior to Zaludoz creating the list and me taking over maintenance of the list would probably be enough to debunk this silly theory that I'm somehow padding the list. Or perhaps spot checking posting histories depending on what paranoid thoughts are running around in one's brain.

"

Shovelcut wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

The point is that the main point of the list is to prove that it is not only a small handful of people posting. Other people have made that accusation not just Shovelcut. Shovelcut just seems to be latest caught up into the paranoid fantasy.

You know, at the beginning I may have said it's just a handful of people. But then I went thru every single fucking thread you linked and made my own list of people that posted, as proof to both you and I that there is without a doubt no way that it's a handful of people. So continuing to act like that is what I believe is you continuing your deception.

Okay, that is good input that I don't recall you previously making. It raises questions in my mind what you have been arguing about then but I don't need to understand everything?