The Labyrinth has a poor risk-to-reward structure.

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Khalixxa wrote:

Thinking "like a game developer" usually means something a simple as "thinking scientifically" about additions to the game. For example, everything that was added to (or changed with) a game was presumably done with some purpose in mind, in other words, some hypothesis as to how players will react. Things don't always have to go perfectly, but part of being a good developer is always looking at what people actually do (the experiment) and not just what you intended them to do (the hypothesis).

A lot of times, you see people make claims like "Y is fine because is does X" and then ending the argument without being empirical about whether Y actually causes X. They never move beyond the hypothesis stage.

In the case of the Labyrinth, everything in it had some intent behind it, but what matters at the end of the day is what players actually do.

Thank you, that can lead to a discussion.

This is basically from your standpoint, your opinion ( even if I basically share your definition of game devloppement ).
You do not know "what players actually do.", from there you cannt know if the Labyrinth is actually a success or a failure.

The labyrinth might have not been designed to target all the PoE crowd, it is quite likely.
This was GGG's decision of course.

I would say that the lab offer and interesting content, not too difficult but not too easy either, not something that you can just do by takign a random build and clicking on 3 buttons.
It offers more than correct rewards, and promotes doing it oneself and not buying it from others.
It frustrates a lot of players because it has traps that bypasse defenses, yes.
This is from a game design/developement standpoint, and my opinion on the matter.

So yes, there is a lot of room for debate, you cannot please everyone anyway, and it is not because you think that it's plain bad that it necessarily is.

Many people seem to have really funny expectations, such as "PoE is a game that fit in my definition of arpg, and arpg should be like this, therefore PoE should be like this !!!"
After they get frustrated, well no wonder.
I'm glad that PoE is trying to innovate and bring something else, like the labyrinth.
We will see on which feet GGG stands on 2.4.0 :
- do they go backward a bit to actually keep going with the power creep easy-mode ( it is mostly about this, let's face it. couple of individuals will tell you how much they are good at lab and they hate it - some with bad good faith maybe, some with bad faith - , but besides them, I'm positive that it's a matter of difficulty ) game that is becoming PoE ?
- or do they stand with the labyrinth gating ascendancy points and try to change the pace a bit ( trying to slow up the clear speed meta was a failure if the lab was partly for this though ) ?

I agree. The labyrinth has very poor risk-to-reward structure. Just like the rest of the game. I think it fits right in.

I also enjoy it from time to time.



I just dislike the reseting-hardcore aspect of it. If I were a hardcore league player and used to that I would probably have no complaints at all about the lab.

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Xtorma wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

A lot of people arguing against the original post have some very good points, but I don't see anyone denying the basic fact that in the labyrinths SKIPPING content is more rewarding, in both the short run and the long run, than PLAYING content.

Unless you feel that that is somehow desirable (and I take it as a premise of my argument that it is not), then so long as that remains the case, there is substantial room for improvement.

I take it as a given that any game design choice that incentivizes skipping content is bad design by definition, since it acknowledges that the content is a chore and a barrier to reward rather than what it should be: intrinsically fun and rewarding gameplay.

In any case, I've quit the game for good as of today (uninstalled for the first time since closed beta), because I honestly hate the labyrinths that much and have way too many alts still in need of Ascending, but I wouldn't mind seeing some of these improvements made for the sake of other players.



P.S. To the guy picking on the hardcore player by saying that net spikes can kill you anywhere in the game: While that is technically true, almost nowhere in the game is it as deadly as in the labyrinths, since extra life and damage mitigation helps you so little against traps. It's not comparable at all.

You can't skip mandatory lab content. you can take the short way for less loot, or the long way for more loot, but certain areas must be done at a minimum. The choice is yours. I will also say this, The vast majority of uniques and high level currency I have procured from the lab, has been when I was doing a key run.

I'm not sure why this thread was necroed, but I don't mind, because the points remain relevant even now.

GGG improved mid-run rewards somewhat since I originally created the thread (May 3rd, during a previous patch), so I do grant you your point.

Nonetheless, as many lab runners (both those who enjoy it and those who merely endure it for the profits) will attest, the labyrinth's greatest rewards are still primarily found at the end of the run. Therefore getting from Point A to Point B via the shortest path possible (one might say this is the entire point of any labyrinth) remains intact.

Some people are OK with this. I am not. (If you are in the former category, then you disagree with the entire premise of the OP, which is fine. But you need to attack the premise per se if that is the case, rather than the argument which follows.)

As I said in the OP, it reminds me too much of Mephisto runs in Diablo 2. Remember those? The idea was to use a teleporting sorceress to skip as much of the content as possible, in order to pop the piñata at the end (Mephisto), scoop up anything good, and then do it over and over agin. Blizzard North recognized that this was an extremely limited implementation of their game which penalized players* who played the game more deliberately, walking and killing monsters on the way, which was the entire point of having areas to walk through, and monsters to kill. (The monsters weren't put there with the intention that players merely skip them, you see.)

I think GGG can learn from Blizzard North's example, in this case. If you look at the rest of the game, it seems they have learned the lesson. But the Labyrinth as it is implemented suggests otherwise.


*Currency inflation. And if you don't believe that PvM MP ARPGs with trading are competitive, then you probably don't understand the concept of inflation, and I encourage you to read up on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation No offense intended.

I already said that all those side areas don't have any justification, aside the time when there's the curious lockbox or the intricate locker: if they are in the daily layout you are gonna take them; if they dont, you push for izaro. I would change a lot for the labyrinth, making more labyrinth: 3 huge maps like the old "labyrinth map", layout and izaro's buffs random per each istance and without any indication to go (with the exception of the trinkets). Without knowing nothing, you are pushed to (and forced too) explore at the best you can, which sometimes will be rewarding while other times won't, as you do in maps: i don't see why the lab should be different here.

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sidtherat wrote:

for people knowing what they are doing the lab has no risk and some rewards (the rng on enchants is brutal). i repeat - for people who know what they are doing there is NO RISK.

lab is setup in a way that pretty much EACH and EVERY player's death is his own fault. there are no BS one shots - if trap kills you it is because you let it kill you.

the disconnects are more of an urband legend right now - ive experienced total of 2 DC since 2.2 and had two cases of weird 'network seizure and then fast forward into the future' cases. both deadly but for 2 months of playing it is ok

btw - if you do not feel rewarded - go somewhere else. games are for fun - so you expect to be PAID to play it? is that what gaming turned into? a job?
do not like how lab plays? play something you like. you need to do it only 3 times per character (2 in most cases as the third pair of points is more of 'also ran' than 'won'). want the lab to feel level appropriate? play it at around lvl 70 and youll be rewarded with level appropriate items and XP. it is your own fault to overlevel it. you do not need to.

Holy fuck these comments are so toxic. These types of comments is what makes the forums absolutely awful. I'm surprised people aren't embarrassed of the way they behave in these threads.