The Labyrinth has a poor risk-to-reward structure.

You've got a confluence of factors that are all working against you, GGG:

1. Labyrinths are functionally non-optional.
2. Labyrinth progress is reset upon death or departure (including when departure isn't the player's fault).
3. Your netcode is, um, well, not perfect. Unexpected disconnections from the server are not uncommon.
4. Traps are especially deadly, and can be unescapable, during latency spikes, also caused by #3.

Let's ignore, for the moment, that some of the above make Labyrinths utter and complete garbage toward hardcore players.

Let's also ignore, for the moment, the throngs of people who think the labyrinths suck, who think traps suck, or who think they both suck.

So let's instead focus on ONE SINGLE problem: The labyrinths are set up like a pinata.

About midway through D2's period of popularity, Blizzard North realized that the number of reward locuses in the game was directly proportionate to how much people played the game as it was intended: PLAYING content as opposed to SKIPPING content. To do this, Blizzard North both increased the number of "pinatas" (by making previously unappealing bosses drop better loot), by increasing the number of champions and rare monsters wandering around the wild, and finally by raising the item levels of certain areas to allow particular set/uniques and craftable items to drop that previously did not.

Perhaps the most fundamental problem with the labyrinth, other than the four items I list above, is that it incentivizes your players to SKIP content to
A) beat the odds of getting disconnected from the server and having all that time wasted, and
B) compensate for the fact that the road TO Izaro is both deadly and not particularly rewarding.

So if you aren't going to kill or overhaul the labyrinth completely, perhaps a second-best effort would be to take a lesson from Blizzard North: Increase the number and/or quality of "pinatas" (caches and crap), raise the number of rare monsters, and adjust the ilvls upwardly.

It would improve the labyrinths slightly, and make people who get kicked from the server just before killing Izaro (as I did just now, and not for the first time) feel REWARDED for playing your game instead of feeling PUNISHED for playing your game.

lol no, Labyrinth is already rewarding enough.

also, lol at the higher level stuff. go run maps if you want higher level mobs, the mob density in there more than makes up for the fact that it isnt a higher level zone. You clearly dont run labyrinth if you dont think it doesnt have multiple strong boxes and rares every area within your run pathing.

Gotta say this is laughable, it doesnt have enough "pinatas" but theres fucking pinatas littered everywhere in there at significantly higher rates than normal areas and thats not even counting the secret areas, caches, chests at the end or enchant roll.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

lol no, Labyrinth is already rewarding enough.

I think you missed the point.

The quantity of rewards isn't the problem at all; the way it is distributed is.

I offered a couple ideas on how to help the problem, which you are free to criticize as you like. But you seem to think they are the point of the post, and they are not.

You think the distribution as-is has no problems? Then defend that statement instead. I've already explained why it is problematic, so you need to poke holes in that if you want to make a decent rebuttal.

for people knowing what they are doing the lab has no risk and some rewards (the rng on enchants is brutal). i repeat - for people who know what they are doing there is NO RISK.

lab is setup in a way that pretty much EACH and EVERY player's death is his own fault. there are no BS one shots - if trap kills you it is because you let it kill you.

the disconnects are more of an urband legend right now - ive experienced total of 2 DC since 2.2 and had two cases of weird 'network seizure and then fast forward into the future' cases. both deadly but for 2 months of playing it is ok

btw - if you do not feel rewarded - go somewhere else. games are for fun - so you expect to be PAID to play it? is that what gaming turned into? a job?
do not like how lab plays? play something you like. you need to do it only 3 times per character (2 in most cases as the third pair of points is more of 'also ran' than 'won'). want the lab to feel level appropriate? play it at around lvl 70 and youll be rewarded with level appropriate items and XP. it is your own fault to overlevel it. you do not need to.

Lab is fine like it makes your char RIDICULOUSLY op.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

lol no, Labyrinth is already rewarding enough.

I think you missed the point.

The quantity of rewards isn't the problem at all; the way it is distributed is.

I offered a couple ideas on how to help the problem, which you are free to criticize as you like. But you seem to think they are the point of the post, and they are not.

You think the distribution as-is has no problems? Then defend that statement instead. I've already explained why it is problematic, so you need to poke holes in that if you want to make a decent rebuttal.

lol'd or maybe you should ?

Did you not see that i just said theres fucking strongboxes littered everywhere ? Its not uncommon to run across atleast 2 per zone in your pathing. Thats free currency in your pocket for simply clicking on a box. Ive found multiple exalts now simply by leap slamming through the zone and popping barrels too, not to mention move skills oneshot mobs in that zone which also drop loot on the way as well.

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with how the loot is distributed, you shouldnt be rewarded across the board for fucking up and dying half way through. Loot at the end SHOULD be better than the loot in the regular zones you path through. Its the reward for completion.

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sidtherat wrote:

lab is setup in a way that pretty much EACH and EVERY player's death is his own fault. there are no BS one shots - if trap kills you it is because you let it kill you.

I think it is wrong to blame players for not being able to avoid traps when they cannot even see where they are sometimes due to network issues. Nor is this a myth; I observed it just 30 minutes ago.

I understand if you think that kind of thing is the players' fault as well, but I have trouble agreeing with that opinion.

Also, your own personal experience with DCs is not particularly relevant to that of others. No offense man, but you're a sample size of one. I experience a fair share, and I'm on a rock-solid stable connection.

you are also a sample size of one

i believe that these network related issues happen - they do. but i have hard time believing that these are universal. and as frequent as some describe - WITHOUT them being at fault in some way. wireless connections, congested connections, daily ISP connection resets, faulty routers etc. GGG has its fair share of problems - the regular full realm crashes + crafting crashes done by some scumbags - are only some but since theyve fixed their Dallas issue there were no widespread network issues. reddit is very quick to make a fuss of every single one of them

ignoring network issues - there is literally no risk doing a lab. it is all under player control. you make a mistake - you get hurt (rarely you are killed..), you make a series of mistakes - you die.

The loot and exp rewards are actualy great for the intended level, but like with everything else, people usualy make sure to outlevel the content first, especialy when big risks are involved.

What we need is the mythical high level version available, where killing stuff, finding chests and getting extra keys is worth it.

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sidtherat wrote:

you are also a sample size of one

i believe that these network related issues happen - they do. but i have hard time believing that these are universal. and as frequent as some describe - WITHOUT them being at fault in some way. wireless connections, congested connections, daily ISP connection resets, faulty routers etc. GGG has its fair share of problems - the regular full realm crashes + crafting crashes done by some scumbags - are only some but since theyve fixed their Dallas issue there were no widespread network issues. reddit is very quick to make a fuss of every single one of them

ignoring network issues - there is literally no risk doing a lab. it is all under player control. you make a mistake - you get hurt (rarely you are killed..), you make a series of mistakes - you die.

It only takes one time for a network issue to kill you during traps. It does not need to be frequent or anything like that. If I have one single lag or freeze during traps I die and lose my character. It is fucking terrible game design for HC players.