SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Thread has gone totally off track to be honest, it's pretty obvious that the OP is trying to say they want the Labyrinth to be optional content, rather than be given everything as if he's a total scrub.

And yes the Labyrinth is not optional content, farming it for enchants is optional, doing it 2-3 times minimum, is not optional. There's no limit to which you can semantically argue that content is optional in PoE however.

The Labyrinth is going to be something people will be racing just like the main game so get used to running it. Its not that bad especially liek it was today where i got the layout down to around 4-5 min runs. The Ascendancy class isnt the only thing to go in there for.. Theres shit tons of loot opportunity as well as Exp if you are running it at lvl and not to mention the enhancements if you happen to get ones that fit into your build is another great way to min max your build.

The place is actually pretty damn easy to speed run so i really dont understand why people hate it so much having to run it 3 times as you progress the entire game 3 times... Its just a detour from the main story for a pretty god damn significant upgrade to your build. so far every ascendancy ive got was a HUGE upgrade to my builds making them quite insane. So theres no way in hell this is something GGG is going to make easy to get nor simply give to people because they do not want to even try to learn/progress the Lab.

Its like saying hey i dont like Act 4 so i think we should all just be able to skip it and just go to the next difficulty if we want to and the people who like act 4 can stay there and play it only if they want to... how much sense does that even make? It doesn't make any sense what so ever.

"

Dragol wrote:

Thread has gone totally off track to be honest, it's pretty obvious that the OP is trying to say they want the Labyrinth to be optional content, rather than be given everything as if he's a total scrub.

And yes the Labyrinth is not optional content, farming it for enchants is optional, doing it 2-3 times minimum, is not optional. There's no limit to which you can semantically argue that content is optional in PoE however.

Thank you for understanding

@MadRabbitPoE Im honestly very pleased to see you reposting

How is it an arbitrary distiction ? Its clear and obvious that Ascendancy is the only optional content released until now that its not exactly optional since it affects advanced character customization, its actually very true that it gates more than just items and im not just saying that, its there for everyone to see it. No matter which side of the debate people support that at least is pretty obvious to everyone but for the unrealistically stubborn.

As if item customization from labs plus the rewards from treasure chests and the fun running the whole thing are not enough, but thats exactly where months and months of power-creeping have lead. Even optional rewards must feel exponentially stronger to keep players engaged, and it all comes down that GGG knew before hand that if AC points where not linked to Labyrinth people would skip it altogether. There is a big trap in that mentallity. (much more lethal than those pesky things in the lab).

If actually Ascendancy Class passives were made into enchaments not even one of these kind of threads would have popped up ( though a different more materialistic kind for sure), because then Ascendancy would be consistent with the previous expansions, since enchants would fall in the same category as Master's crafting. People wouldnt even feel obliged to acquire them cause they would be on par with what previously was introduced, like the enchants as they are now, are just a bit more powerful and helpful than master's crafting (though i find specific master crafts way stronger).

The problem here is the fact that its passive, obtainable with skill points just like in the original Tree and its actually a specialization, a prestige class system borrowed from D&D and applied to the base classes. That alone passive-aggresively forces players to ascend, a problem that would be non-existant if these were items. Being passive feels personal and customizable as you see fit, everyone making his own builds makes a deeper connection to the character itself rather than the items (thats why i kept on playing PoE even if i got hacked recently, cause the characters are all unique and are personally customized, while the items are there to equip and trade dont mean much).

Yes gating (its a word that while simple makes a strong impression - negative or not- that works just fine in this instance) certain items behind optional content is fine with everyone indeed, gating essential to character customization skill points behind "optional" and alternative playstyle is not, and nobody should accept that cause that allows even more experimental content to be considered for implementation with unfathomable consequences for the game itself.

Lastly i want to adress something that seems to be implied in every post i see, setting free the ascendancy points means for the ascencion to be unlinked from the labyrinth due to the optional and experimental nature of the expansion and content, where GGG actually puts AC points is another thing. (i may have suggested some solutions on that matter, but they were not thoroughly thought just some ideas on the go)

So yes there is a big difference, both in implementation and in practice, and its a game defining difference nontheless.

As for the "philosophical" questions, people just dont care about anything said here as well as in many other threads, they are hyped with the new content and they dont see how this expansion has fundamentally changed some of PoE's aspects. Truly the mark of a new era, maybe im getting old before my time or im just an idealistic fool, time will tell i guess.

Really hate the labyrinth. I read a suggestion somewhere where you could trade ascendancy points (so its like new currency) So people that dont want to go through this crap can just trade for it. Or just make it free after we kill Malachai in every difficulty

Dont like it so i dont run it, skip al trials and all labyrinth content.
Reason for me is that i dont like the die and start over, it takes me almost 1 hour just to get to the end boss where i die and have to get back again, 1 hour? yes i play slow, explore the map and hate to rush things.

For me the game evolves around character building even if those builds suck at everything except dieing :), died 58 times to normal dominus once because of a shitty build but for me it was fun, thats why i play softcore.

Solution for me would be to unlock the AC points from the labyrinth so i can at least use them in builds.
Dont want them for free tho, set them in the trials, now at each trial u click a plaque and portal out, what if u had to defeat a boss at the end of each trial, there are 6 on each difficulty so 6 bosses, after defeating 3 u get one AC point next after 3 more, that way the labyrinth can stay the same, make it more difficult for al i care :)

Walk, wait, walk, walk back, wait, wait, warp, walk, get shred to pieces, realize that you've wasted another hour and got no further with your build.

I like the lab to an extend but I'd like to do it when I feel ready and not when I just want to try a build that includes an Asc. Skill to work.

Leave the lab as it is, it offers great gear already. But please put the Ascendancy Points just at the end of Act 4, which offers no reward at all in the current game! This would make me end Act4 even in merciless.

A 15-25% reduction in numbers from the launch might be enough for a change (though in steamcharts, the percentange logically must be the same-ish with the standalone game launcher too), but the be honest the active flat number of players per day is still way larger than talisman's. That offource might have to do with the charity league called perandus, or other reasons, i still refuse to believe the majority of the people enjoy lab.

Really looking forward on tomorrow's news, one can only hope.

Putting the points as rewards for killing Malachai would make allot of sense for sure. However if they did do that. They would have to change the voice parts of the Lab and whatnot.

"

King_of_Limbs wrote:

Walk, wait, walk, walk back, wait, wait, warp, walk, get shred to pieces, realize that you've wasted another hour and got no further with your build.

I like the lab to an extend but I'd like to do it when I feel ready and not when I just want to try a build that includes an Asc. Skill to work.

Leave the lab as it is, it offers great gear already. But please put the Ascendancy Points just at the end of Act 4, which offers no reward at all in the current game! This would make me end Act4 even in merciless.

care to link your build and gear? would like to see what build takes an hour to complete the lab

In greater discussion, I respond on a paragraph by paragraph basis. Some people find me breaking down their posts like this to be annoying. Just saying that as a warning, because I am not doing it to be annoying. Rather, I like to make it easier for people to apply context to my points; I think people who write one big huge post are trying to add more superficial validity to their response by making it harder for people to follow context.

"

How is it an arbitrary distiction ? Its clear and obvious that Ascendancy is the only optional content released until now that its not exactly optional since it affects advanced character customization, its actually very true that it gates more than just items and im not just saying that, its there for everyone to see it. No matter which side of the debate people support that at least is pretty obvious to everyone but for the unrealistically stubborn.

Just repeating your position which I already understood before I replied. Doesn't discredit my arguments or prove that the position is true. Advanced character customization in PoE IS done by items. The significance of gating items or certain crafting features behind content is no less than gating Ascendancy points, beyond this distinction you are making between the two that has little practical merit.

"

As if item customization from labs plus the rewards from treasure chests and the fun running the whole thing are not enough, but thats exactly where months and months of power-creeping have lead. Even optional rewards must feel exponentially stronger to keep players engaged, and it all comes down that GGG knew before hand that if AC points where not linked to Labyrinth people would skip it altogether. There is a big trap in that mentallity. (much more lethal than those pesky things in the lab).

You talk about power creep as if it's a bad thing or avoidable in the long term growth of an ARPG that's heavily motivated by power fantasy. Neither are the case. Nor can you prove the assertion that nobody would have played the Labyrinth without the Ascendancy points beyond a sampling of people in this thread who agree with your position which is tainted by selection bias.

"

If actually Ascendancy Class passives were made into enchaments not even one of these kind of threads would have popped up ( though a different more materialistic kind for sure), because then Ascendancy would be consistent with the previous expansions, since enchants would fall in the same category as Master's crafting. People wouldnt even feel obliged to acquire them cause they would be on par with what previously was introduced, like the enchants as they are now, are just a bit more powerful and helpful than master's crafting (though i find specific master crafts way stronger).

I don't follow this at all, but I am new to the game, so I took some time to do some more research on crafting to make sure I understood this correctly. Enchantments replace implicit modifiers; my gloves have crafting mods and enchantments on them. So enchantments provide advanced character customization that can't be achieved just via master crafting. In light of that, I disagree that no one would feel obliged to acquire them. This is just once again, making a baseless distinction between advanced character customization delivered in the vessel of Ascendancy points vs item modification.

"

The problem here is the fact that its passive, obtainable with skill points just like in the original Tree and its actually a specialization, a prestige class system borrowed from D&D and applied to the base classes. That alone passive-aggresively forces players to ascend, a problem that would be non-existant if these were items. Being passive feels personal and customizable as you see fit, everyone making his own builds makes a deeper connection to the character itself rather than the items (thats why i kept on playing PoE even if i got hacked recently, cause the characters are all unique and are personally customized, while the items are there to equip and trade dont mean much).

Wow, what a load of bollocks. Talk about going to the extreme to provide some greater justification to your personal desire to get Ascendancy points (which you value) out of the Labyrinth (which you don't like) while leaving enchanting in there (which you don't value).

But, for a player like me, I honestly don't give a shit. There is no greater passive desire to acquire Ascendancy points over enchantments, because the line where my character ends and the items begins is so incredibly blurred that making a distinction between the two is irrelevant and baseless. Getting Liege of the Primordial and getting the Reflection glove enchantment have equal importance, because they both play equal roles in defining my build.

"

Yes gating (its a word that while simple makes a strong impression - negative or not- that works just fine in this instance) certain items behind optional content is fine with everyone indeed, gating essential to character customization skill points behind "optional" and alternative playstyle is not, and nobody should accept that cause that allows even more experimental content to be considered for implementation with unfathomable consequences for the game itself.

I will concede to you that it is an entirely possible you are smarter than everyone else and have forseen a horrible, horrible future that we cannot fathom.

However, while I will concede it as a possibility, I don't consider it plausible or even probable. Instead I think everyone you think is not getting it just gets that character identity in PoE is created by a very blurry line between items and trait choices.

You can't make a comparison to Prestige classes in D&D; they don't have the same weight. Active skill choices are built into the classes themselves in D&D; character identity exists separately from the items. In PoE, it's just not the case here; you cannot make a percentage of character builds without acquiring certain skill gems and uniques with specific slot numbers and links. The passive skill tree establishes no character identity without the items.

Therefore, treating gating one behind content with higher weight than the other just has little practical value. This is ultimately you not liking the Labyrinth and not wanting to do it, which I am totally fine with; I'm just not very cool with that being cloaked in false nobility.

"

Lastly i want to adress something that seems to be implied in every post i see, setting free the ascendancy points means for the ascencion to be unlinked from the labyrinth due to the optional and experimental nature of the expansion and content, where GGG actually puts AC points is another thing. (i may have suggested some solutions on that matter, but they were not thoroughly thought just some ideas on the go)

Sure, whatever. Just be sure to call them Entitlement points, because without getting them as reward from completing challenging content, you aren't really ascending to anything.

Whatever method you choose to deliver them, unless it's just handing all 6 to the player at character creation, they are still being gated. Even if distributed as part of the leveling process, it still gates them behind content that players have to complete to achieve that level. The only significance I can see here is that you will make suggestions to gate them behind content that you personally like.

"

So yes there is a big difference, both in implementation and in practice, and its a game defining difference nontheless.

No, there isn't. I remain unconvinced that there is anything beyond this than you not liking the Labyrinth, because your arguments are based on either erroneous comparisons to other games or comparisons to other things in game that conveniently leave out important factors.

"

As for the "philosophical" questions, people just dont care about anything said here as well as in many other threads, they are hyped with the new content and they dont see how this expansion has fundamentally changed some of PoE's aspects. Truly the mark of a new era, maybe im getting old before my time or im just an idealistic fool, time will tell i guess.

Perhaps or maybe they are all just like me and realize that his little greater significance to the future of the game beyond some people not liking traps. I think that's more grounded than one that appeals to your personal arrogance.