SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

Regulator wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

My god man you've spent more time QQing here then it takes for you to do the lab multiple times. Grats OP on wasting your time spamming the forums instead of just doing the challenge and be done with it.

Plus your signature

While im sure i would have finished the lab if i had put even the slightest of effort as you said, im consciously objecting in doing so. Im still having fun with the core game, but im extremely disappointed that i wont mess around with the AC, cause the compination of the new playstyle and the decision to gate something so big behind it, is foundamentaly opposed to my standards for PoE.

We are analyzing what the future of PoE might be if that design sticks, and obviously many people are interested on the matter on either side of the debate. It only seems QQing if you dont understand the worries we express in general, in which case i suggest to read again or refrain yourself from posting.

You should refrain yourself from shitposting in almost every topic regarding the lab. You are concerned about the future of the game when they literally will do whatever they want, almost regardless of player feedback?

You think your thread is going to make a difference because you think that this somehow is so farfetched of an idea in an ARPG game, it really isn't. But that is ok if you think that, its not ok however for you to clutter the forums with nothing but asking for GGG to basically throw the whole expansion out the window just because you and a few of your "hipster" friends think it doesn't fit the theme of the game.

If it didn't fit it wouldn't be in the game. If they wanted ascendancy points to be easier to get they would not have put it behind the lab, you continue to discuss this like you are some sort of expert on game design but also add in cheap ass excuses or arguements that just make me cringe like "players are leaving because of this", really you mean like all the other expansions PoE has done in the past which has changed the game in some form or fashion? You mean like removing eternals from the game? You mean like making unique drop rates more common to the point of everything essentially being extremely cheap?


Trust me (or don't) when I say that the people complaining most about these aren't putting forth the effort to learn the mechanics, which is why I updated my signature. Not only that the other large issues have to do with unrelated things like server disconnects or bugs that prevented some people from completing the lab (bad zones) Still after those people would learn the mechanics they would realize its not that big of a deal to do this on multiple characters, even less of an issue if you are a perm league character.

You think gating the expansion content behind the lab is wrong, when every single expansion content basically to date is gated by wealth, grind or RNG. This is the most "skill" based one to date, god forbid they add something that might be a bit challenging to claim additional power and doesn't give it to you for free.

You are literally beating a horse that is already dead more and more, I'm sure the horse would appreciate it if you would stop violating its body.

"

Are you saying discussing the direction PoE is not worthwhile endeavor? What are you doing here then? Shouldn't you be enjoying the your puzzle game?

I actually did enjoy running it multiple times yesterday, unfor I cant play while at work, but I did get this after about 15 total tries.



Also pretty happy with my other 2 ones:



The gloves are slated for replacement I found some currency so probably going to get myself something nice.

"

MadRabbitPoE wrote:

Because at the end of the day, it's all just garbage. Whether or not it "belongs" in a game like this has little to no value. By making a comparison to games that have come before and saying "See? It's wrong that it's here, because it's clearly here in a game which belongs to this genre and not in a game which belongs in this genre", you are just effectively crippling the developers from doing anything that hasn't been done before.

All that accomplishes is imposing limiting boundaries on the developers that state basically "Be creative as long as you stay within these boxes clearly defined by my past perception and categorizations of previous games."

I don't give a fuck if it "should" be in an APRG. You don't give a fuck either if "should not" be in an APRG based on your OP.

What you care about is having the game changed to fit your personal standards because you personally like the Ascendancy classes and find them valuable and personally dislike the Labyrinth.

You play PoE, because it's different and fun and you want developer's to be creative, but then as soon as they do something that you don't like (which is life; nobody likes every piece of future content released), you cling to these stereotypes you carefully define as some kind of bullshit ammunition to push your own personal preferences.

If you just flat out came out and said it, just were like "Hey, this is what I don't like about the Labyrinth as a player and how my experience would be better if changed.", you won't hear a word from me in rebuttal. That's being real and honest about your intentions, not cloaking it in all this bullshit about how these changes are for the greater philosophical good of the game itself.

Your noble crusade is nothing more than to satisfy your own selfishness just like my rebuttal is to satisfy my own.

I appreciate bluntness and thank you for that post, i really do.

We already expresses that we dont like the lab and its playstyle and thats why we obviously refuse to run it. And people even from the other side seem to undersand this. And im ok with GGG making content that will not appeal to everyone, the same happened with sacrfice of the vaal, with masters, with the awakening, even the leagues they implemented.

Whats the "philosophical bullshit" behind the whole matter is the following thing:

Its the first time in PoE history that by refusing to do the content of an expansion they implemented you lose much more than just items.

1) Refused to do atziri - no items
2) Refused to do dailies - no items
3) Refused to join a new league - no items
And then comes the Ascendancy where : refused to do the lab : no items and no AC points.

And that creates the "philosophical" questions : Why? Is it sound design? Even if it is why the design helps those who build as glass cannons, that implies a change of the game's direction. Whats next? Whats stoping them from gating even more crucial content behind "optional" expansions? Whats stopping them from creating an UBER UBER UBER Core-Malachai, that is nearly impossible to defeat without BiS gear but grants insane upgrades to the TREE itself? Whats the future of PoE, will it become the best ARPG ever or the mixture of many playstyles will be the death of it as we know it? And all those are reasonable questions.

what is stopping them? maybe this that 99% of the playerbase moved on and does not care about this small, localised riot done by 5 guys (literally five of you)

and.. Rigwald was gated behind extreme grind. ive skipped entire league because of that because i consider that bs from gameplay perspective

but you know what? i wasnt crying my tears for weeks on forum. esp when your 'mutiny' is so out of proportion that it looks comical. youve spend hours arguing here complaining that it takes minutes to complete the lab and you refuse to do it because you refuse to do it.

pretty.. well.. questionable time management

"

Regulator wrote:

Its the first time in PoE history that by refusing to do the content of an expansion they implemented you lose much more than just items.

1) Refused to do atziri - no items
2) Refused to do dailies - no items
3) Refused to join a new league - no items
And then comes the Ascendancy where : refused to do the lab : no items and no AC points.

And that creates the "philosophical" questions : Why? Is it sound design? Even if it is why the design helps those who build as glass cannons, that implies a change of the game's direction. Whats next? Whats stoping them from gating even more crucial content behind "optional" expansions? Whats stopping them from creating an UBER UBER UBER Core-Malachai, that is nearly impossible to defeat without BiS gear but grants insane upgrades to the TREE itself? Whats the future of PoE, will it become the best ARPG ever or the mixture of many playstyles will be the death of it as we know it? And all those are reasonable questions.

Because the game isn't revolved around just items, its perfectly fine game design to put something like ascendancy classes behind of new content.

1) Atziri is gated by rng(piece) and via a skill factor, the reward for killing her is items.
a) like you said its items, items can be bought so doing atziri even if you want to benefit is optional.

2) Masters, masters are gated by grinding and a bit of RNG. It cost currency to benefit from what they provide most of the time.
a) in terms of what you benefit largely from, again its something you can buy

3) New leagues are ways to introduce new mechanics or things that could be added to the core of the game.
a) except with talismans all previous league items are available via methods in the core game.


So they introduce a new expansion, one where you have to actually do something to benefit from the expansion, because of this "entitled" people think they shouldn't have to complete a challenge because previous leagues didn't require that. But previous leagues were all item benefits not a passive tree\class benefit, isn't it only logical that a SKILL TREE based bonus actually requires some SKILL or effort from the player, isn't it actually a good thing that this isn't something you can buy 100% your way thru (someone can kill the bosses for you)

The answer is unequivocally yes. Some people hate leveling characters, some people only play their level 100 character. Regardless the point still stands that this is a bonus you shouldn't get for free, because mobs and passive tree wasn't changed for the addition of these trees, its a BONUS and one you can earn.


There is nothing wrong with making a skill based challenge in an ARPG game that requires you do it in order to benefit. Not everything in PoE has to be a challenge that can be overcome with an economical sacrfice from the player.

"

Whats stopping them from creating an UBER UBER UBER Core-Malachai, that is nearly impossible to defeat without BiS gear but grants insane upgrades to the TREE itself?

Technically nothing. Realistically the nature that this game is catered to temp league players and that your scenario listed here isn't realistic.

A more realistic question is, what is stopping them from adding more skill\time based challenges to get character bonuses that can't just be purchased, the answer is nothing, but realistically the answer is that ascendancy serves that purpose and it isn't needed to add any more skill based challenges that benefits a character's tree then the one we already have.


At this point you've switched your complaint from the current lab (most likely because you know they won't move the points elsewhere) to worrying about something that wouldn't happen for years, just to keep your topic alive. That is some next level reaching for support.....

Again your topic just preys on the fact that people aren't willing to learnt he mechanics or put forth the effort to complete the lab and just want anything they cant get easily with currency or rushed thru out of the game.

"

sidtherat wrote:

what is stopping them? maybe this that 99% of the playerbase moved on and does not care about this small, localised riot done by 5 guys (literally five of you)

and.. Rigwald was gated behind extreme grind. ive skipped entire league because of that because i consider that bs from gameplay perspective

but you know what? i wasnt crying my tears for weeks on forum. esp when your 'mutiny' is so out of proportion that it looks comical. youve spend hours arguing here complaining that it takes minutes to complete the lab and you refuse to do it because you refuse to do it.

pretty.. well.. questionable time management

If they made the labyrinth pure gated end game content i wonder if it would have recieved the same amount of hate. I kinda enjoy then idea of having six teirs of labs 65 70 75 80 85 90 and the entire purpose of playing would be to get our ascendacy points.

"

Legendaris wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

what is stopping them? maybe this that 99% of the playerbase moved on and does not care about this small, localised riot done by 5 guys (literally five of you)

and.. Rigwald was gated behind extreme grind. ive skipped entire league because of that because i consider that bs from gameplay perspective

but you know what? i wasnt crying my tears for weeks on forum. esp when your 'mutiny' is so out of proportion that it looks comical. youve spend hours arguing here complaining that it takes minutes to complete the lab and you refuse to do it because you refuse to do it.

pretty.. well.. questionable time management

If they made the labyrinth pure gated end game content i wonder if it would have recieved the same amount of hate. I kinda enjoy then idea of having six teirs of labs 65 70 75 80 85 90 and the entire purpose of playing would be to get our ascendacy points.

Considering how few players actually get to those upper levels it isn't surprising to me that they didn't have the multiple levels like you are suggesting here. In addition I think it would be much worst of an expansion if it did.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Again your topic just preys on the fact that people aren't willing to learnt he mechanics or put forth the effort to complete the lab and just want anything they cant get easily with currency or rushed thru out of the game.

I don't know why you keep saying this. These are the most trite mechanics in gaming and that is why having to rehash them is a turn off. When they are trotted out, it is a bad thing because it means GGG ran out of ideas. RPGs should test the player's skills at generating and managing chars, not the player's skill at navigating obstacles, even aRPGs. #GENRES_MATTER

"

Vortextreme wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Again your topic just preys on the fact that people aren't willing to learnt he mechanics or put forth the effort to complete the lab and just want anything they cant get easily with currency or rushed thru out of the game.

I don't know why you keep saying this. These are the most trite mechanics in gaming and that is why having to rehash them is a turn off. When they are trotted out, it is a bad thing because it means GGG ran out of ideas. RPGs should test the player's skills at generating and managing chars, not the player's skill at navigating obstacles, even aRPGs. #GENRES_MATTER

I mean technically D3 has fire pits and little hammer things that come down. But obviously it doesn't fit the genre. I mean you and your circle jerk buddy are the true deciders of what fits and what doesn't right?


Its no surprise to me that its also people that support a lot less (or not at all) that feel like their opinion matters more. LOL

"

Regulator wrote:

I appreciate bluntness and thank you for that post, i really do.

We already expresses that we dont like the lab and its playstyle and thats why we obviously refuse to run it. And people even from the other side seem to undersand this. And im ok with GGG making content that will not appeal to everyone, the same happened with sacrfice of the vaal, with masters, with the awakening, even the leagues they implemented.

Whats the "philosophical bullshit" behind the whole matter is the following thing:

Its the first time in PoE history that by refusing to do the content of an expansion they implemented you lose much more than just items.

1) Refused to do atziri - no items
2) Refused to do dailies - no items
3) Refused to join a new league - no items
And then comes the Ascendancy where : refused to do the lab : no items and no AC points.

And that creates the "philosophical" questions : Why? Is it sound design? Even if it is why the design helps those who build as glass cannons, that implies a change of the game's direction. Whats next? Whats stoping them from gating even more crucial content behind "optional" expansions? Whats stopping them from creating an UBER UBER UBER Core-Malachai, that is nearly impossible to defeat without BiS gear but grants insane upgrades to the TREE itself? Whats the future of PoE, will it become the best ARPG ever or the mixture of many playstyles will be the death of it as we know it? And all those are reasonable questions.

Like I said, I am totally fine with you not liking the content, but you are still making an arbitrary distinct here to justify changes for your personal benefit, because you don't want to do the content to get them.

You are making a distinction between gating items behind content and gating ascendancy points? Why? What is the practical difference? How do the caliber of the bonuses conferred differ from the one's granted via build defining uniques?

Is it because the Ascendancy result in guarenteed bonuses that can be planned for and are not subject to RNG? A crucial difference in implementation, but in practice, it has little significance unless you choose a self-found only style and don't leverage the market to circumvent RNG.

Is it because the Ascendancy points confer bonuses that extend beyond your gear? Well, so do the enchantments. What if we took the Ascendancy bonuses and consolidated them into a total of 5 enchantments that could be applied to rings and amulets, effectively limiting them to 3 out of 5 in the same way you are limited to 6 out of 10? You could pick an enchantment instead of relying on RNG. Would this satisfy your criticism of bad game design? If so, what did it actually accomplish in practice?

What if we took the build defining bonuses from the Three Dragons and added it as an ascendancy bonus? Would that be any less gated than requiring a character level and sufficient currency to purchase it off the market? How much would the game actually change? Is it because that particular bonus would be available while using a seperate helmet? Ascendancy bonuses already confer that benefit; it's just a difference in the substance of the bonus.

It's one thing to leverage criticism about the design of the Labyrinth and make suggestions how to improve it to make the rewards more obtainable for the player base (Improvements I don't personally feel it needs), but it's another to make an argument that some of the rewards should be entitled to you as a player right out of the gate just because you acquired the expansion.

That argument is weak and stands on very shaky ground, because it can only be made by narrowing down on myopic details and ignoring the big picture, in which, those myopic details mean very little in terms of practical value. "Gating" is just a buzz word people use when they don't want to do content to get something. However, in reality, "gating" certain things behind content is absolutely essential to the RPG game model, because for tasks or challenges to feel rewarding, they have to grant bonuses that develop your character.

I mean, hell, it's not even like the game doesn't have exclusive items with certain bonuses tied to completing certain content. That precedent has been establishing, but yet, now, when, GGG changes the medium in which those bonuses are rewarded, they instantly becomes things that should be entitlements and not rewards.

As far as the actual philsophical questions, they are all reasonable questions to be asked. Perhaps, they will be better received when you ask them in a seperate thread with the only the intention of exploring them as opposed to a thread where you are leveraging them as ammunition to justify pushing a change to a game that is clearly motivated by personal preference?

"

goetzjam wrote:

I mean technically D3 has fire pits and little hammer things that come down. But obviously it doesn't fit the genre. I mean you and your circle jerk buddy are the true deciders of what fits and what doesn't right?

I didn't play D3, but if this stuff was in the game from the beginning, I couldn't say anything about it. I don't have to buy D3 either if it has stuff I don't want to play, and that really is the point. I've invested in PoE with time and money.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Its no surprise to me that its also people that support a lot less (or not at all) that feel like their opinion matters more. LOL

I don't see how this is relevant or how you came to this conclusion, but keep on feeling superior. All players opinions can be valuable, even if they haven't purchased anything. Who says they won't buy in the future, especially if their opinion is valued?