SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

It proves that a huge majority of the people who took the poll dislike the lab, so it indeed does prove something.

Um, no. It proves that slightly more than half of the 880 or so people who took the poll fall on the dislike side. That's not a huge majority of anything.

Over 25% of all respondents to the straw poll you're misinterpreting picked the lowest possible score (ie: "Worst"). That's more than double the rate of response to any other choice on the ten point scale for that straw poll.

When there are over 200 votes giving Labyrinth the lowest possible rating on a 10 point scale and just shy of 60% in the bottom half of the ratings, then your interpretation of the response to the poll looks a lot like "I only see what I want to see."

Moreover, some of the few habitually posting defenders of Labyrinth on the fora have a pattern of mentioning how they like Labyrinth and/or some they know like it, as if that's evidence enough of how Labyrinth is a great part of the game and should remain as the gate for Ascendancy for the future.

When you dismiss 800+ players voicing their thoughts and the "N" you're citing as evidence is a tiny fraction of that 800+ players, then you are not being consistent in how you handle data. You are engaging in "I only see what I want to see."

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

When you dismiss 800+ players voicing their thoughts and the "N" you're citing as evidence is a tiny fraction of that 800+ players, then you are not being consistent in how you handle data. You are engaging in "I only see what I want to see."

I dismiss the poll because it's easy to manipulate. As I said, let GGG host their own poll and then we can talk numbers.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

When you dismiss 800+ players voicing their thoughts and the "N" you're citing as evidence is a tiny fraction of that 800+ players, then you are not being consistent in how you handle data. You are engaging in "I only see what I want to see."

I dismiss the poll because it's easy to manipulate. As I said, let GGG host their own poll and then we can talk numbers.

Without talking numbers, the poll strongly indicates that a significant percentage of PoE have a dislike of Labyrinth. Which also is what is anecdotally demonstrated by the 29 threads I have posted multiple times. (There are more than 29 I'm sure. That is just how many I found easily.)

I suspect GGG has already decided to make ascension available outside Labyrinth. The main question is when it will be available? I seriously doubt that GGG will ever sponsor a poll on the question. I see no real purpose in it? What would you expect to be different in a GGG sponsored poll?

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Turtledove wrote:

I see no real purpose in it? What would you expect to be different in a GGG sponsored poll?

Aside from the entire playerbase seeing it? Non-manipulable results.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

I see no real purpose in it? What would you expect to be different in a GGG sponsored poll?

Aside from the entire playerbase seeing it? Non-manipulable results.

You may have thought more carefully about what you don't like about the straw poll linked to earlier than you did about how well positioned GGG might be to do something more representative.

First, GGG is not a neutral party in this. They have financial and internal political reasons not to risk embarrassing themselves by getting even a substantial minority (never mind a majority) of players saying they'd prefer Ascendancy be removed from Labyrinth.

Second, the announcements forum could be one venue for a survey. But, it is heavily frequented by players who type "Awesome" when GGG mentions a new skill and it is obviously not representative of all players. In particular, a survey in the announcements forum would almost certainly be ineffective at getting responses from those who left the game over Labyrinth.

Thus, GGG would pretty much need to do an email survey to those downloading the game (with perhaps some cut-off for playtime) in an effort to make the results representative. Those who moved on would be particularly likely to not respond. Since player retention rates are not high and email surveys are routinely ignored by many, the response rate would almost certainly be very low to miniscule.

You're still not getting the larger point, or perhaps you simply refuse to see it. No expansion before this one has received anywhere near the ongoing level of dislike and hate over such an extended period of time from so many players.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Thus, GGG would pretty much need to do an email survey in an effort to make the results representative.

Announcements are usually linked in-game on the login screen, that should be sufficient to get the largest possible number of active players to see it.

I get that a fair number of players don't like it. But you guys use this poll and a couple handfuls of threads to represent what the entire playerbase feels. And to me, that just isn't the case. I'm no statistician but if there are 3k-5k players running it on a daily basis, surly it isn't the failure you're making it out to be. If it was I'd expect to see many more than 800 votes on that poll and much fewer people running it daily.

Fuck it, I'm out. :)

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

The traps could be destructible.

The 'penalty' for playing through the lab that way would be a slower time, less treasure keys at the end and an INFINITELY smaller e-peen.

That would make two ways of doing it and still allow the elitists to separate themselves from the rest of us pitiful nubs.

Ive been contemplating on this idea for a while now and ive came to the conclusion that is a solid one. It has the obvious downsides you mention (without the keys though since you can still clear the whole thing) and doesnt change anything for those who love the lab playstyle while removing the arcade element for those who dislike it.

There is one big issue though, MELEE, or more specifically non-aoe or melee splash melee users. They would instantly be at disadvantage compared to any bow/wand/spell user and in a much worse position even compared to ice crash/reave/earthquake etc "melee" users. If we could find a solution on that i would gladly put it in the suggestions section.

So after thinking on the issue for a while i came to the following idea based on yours. The traps can be turned off/be deactivated. How would that work : every trap room has a puzzle that leads to a crank, solving the puzzle would allow you to use the crank and thus deactivate the traps in the room. What does this achieve? Removal of the arcade playstyle the current traps impose. Slower but more immersing playstyle closer to the RPG style. Since it wont change anything in the way traps work and the layout of the labyrinth, daily lab runners can still benefit from running the lab as fast as they do now, without taking into account the puzzle, so enchants farming and leaderboards racing remains the same. It literally has zero downside if implemented like this. Arcade playstyle for those who love the current trap system, RPG playstyle for those who dislike the arcade one. Another win-win solution. Izaro fights all remain the same. The reward room remains the same. Trials also contain puzzles which by solving them lead to the crank that disables the traps in the area.


EDIT : Updated OP with IX suggestion.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Thus, GGG would pretty much need to do an email survey in an effort to make the results representative.

Announcements are usually linked in-game on the login screen, that should be sufficient to get the largest possible number of active players to see it.

I get that a fair number of players don't like it. But you guys use this poll and a couple handfuls of threads to represent what the entire playerbase feels. And to me, that just isn't the case. I'm no statistician but if there are 3k-5k players running it on a daily basis, surly it isn't the failure you're making it out to be. If it was I'd expect to see many more than 800 votes on that poll and much fewer people running it daily.

Fuck it, I'm out. :)

What I've argued is that the poll and the forum posts indicate a significant percentage of players dislike labyrinth. So, I think that we are agreed on that.

I think everyone also admits that there are a significant percentage of players that like the labyrinth. Although I have no clue where your 3K-5K figure comes from? The ladder seems to consistently indicate something more in the hundreds rather than the thousands? Normal and Cruel being much smaller numbers since there is less farming/racing going on there. Apparently more single runs for ascendancy in normal and cruel since the median times are slower.

What is this mess here ?

I have not gone through the whole threat, but whenever I check in, most I read is useless off-topic discussion.

How you should debate or not, why polls are useless, why xy is an idiot and why someone elses form of writing ect. is completely __randominsult__. (On both , pro & con "lab-bound-ascendency-points" side)

Then there are several reasons spread within why people don't like the current state of the lab responded with
" go home noob kid who wants free stuff "

But, I haven't read a single real argument why it should stay exactly the way it is.
Why exactly is it so good to have mandatory ascendency points gated behind Arcade-style traps that break the "traditional arpg" mechanics ?

I have not even seen posts with " I like lab because xy reason" only bashing the complains about it.

Is there anyone here, playing hardcore(!!!), who can say something like:
" Yeah, right when I get to A3 on a new Char, I can't wait to run the lab, not because I want my Ascendency Points fast as possible, but because it is so much fun to run through.., the points are just a nice Bonus ! After I get them I do like 3 more runs before moving on to leveling Because it's so fun to have the higher risk dying to traps then the useless mobs who are not hard enough. And the rewards are really worth it ! I do this in every difficulty of course, cannot understand why lot of other Hardcore players only do it late in the game when they only need to avoid traps that can kill them and not the mobs too! And once I hit lvl 90 with my char and have rly nice gg-gear. I get bored from maps, because they are so easy you know. So I go back to Labyrinth farming too feel the fear of death again." .. ?

And.., even if someone thinks like this.., they have all right too, I don't want them to stop having fun dying to traps, still, the last question is, why exactly it is so important to you that others have to get through this too ?