SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

The traps could be destructible.

The 'penalty' for playing through the lab that way would be a slower time, less treasure keys at the end and an INFINITELY smaller e-peen.

That would make two ways of doing it and still allow the elitists to separate themselves from the rest of us pitiful nubs.

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Turtledove wrote:

Shovelcut makes a reasonable summary of the thread but, apparently doesn't understand that games should be fun.

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Regulator wrote:

I understand GGG has put a lot of effort on the expansion and what im asking is too much, but ascendancy points should be freed from the labyrinth's tyranny. In no way im asking for ascendancy points to be completely free but freed from labyrinth playstyle, meaning that GGG can put them as rewards for someting else.

For starters its the first time in an expansion that GGG gated such content. With "such" i mean immaterial content aka the ascendancy points that feel way too important, personal and flavourful for character customization, thus making the first non-optional expansion. After all this is an ARPG game where min-maxing and character creation/optimization matter a ton.

Even though gating is a dick move, its sometimes needed to make something feel more important. What is the problem though here is that GGG decided that the gate is a completely different game inside PoE. A series and combination of 80' arcade games with 90' action-adventure, aka Indiana Jones meet PoE meet Contra. This has the negative effect of alienating many players who feel excluded from this expansion because they do not find that - obviously different - playstyle fun and/or engaging. PoE can have experimental content, thats fine from and for everyone, but gating something so important behind that is a dumb move from the company

Guess what? there is more. GGG labeled the labyrinth as hard, difficult, skill-based content that will prove to be an alternate end-game. Well they couldnt be more wrong. First of all there is no difficulty issue whatsover, maybe some feel izaro is overtuned for his level but thats easily countered with overleveling or knowing the game mechanics. Second the only skill that someone needs, is to know how to press quicksilver pots or use movement skills. Wait, see pattern of the trap, quicksilver pull lever, and level cleared (just like playing hardcore mario).

But it gets worse. In a game like PoE where the skill tree and character creation is the main attraction surely people's choices must be (and are) very important. Well... labyrinth and especially traps say FUCK YOUR CHOICES, if x person used 50points on his basic skill tree to get hp and armour while y player used 20 points for hp and armour, regarding traps the person with the less hp has actually an easier time in case he gets hit by a trap. WHAT???? How is that possible you may ask, well its easy, healing pots restore higher percentage to the player with the less flat hp pool. Yeah that happens, and its even worse for certain hybrid or pure ES characters. Ofcourse one's players damage and movement choices are unaffected by the labyrinth. So traps ignore and negate specific mechanics while they allow others to trivilize them.So yeah very well thought and fair system.. not.

Its pretty obvious that the labyrinth is dividing the community and for a lot of right reasons. If we take into account PoE's notorius performance issues the matter gets even worse.

So what im suggesting here is for GGG to consider at some point to remove the ascendancy points from labyrinth. Not make them completely free, but remove that tedious, frustrating and unfun playstyle as a requirement to acquire them. There have been suggestions about the matter both in this as well as other similar threads, and its up to GGG to decide how and where Ascendancy Points might fit without causing so much discord.

Alternative Ascension Methods

Every suggestion made (and i could find) in the forums that is in line with the opening post will be mentioned a analyzed a bit here. Suggestions will be in bold, credits and analysis below the suggestion.

I) Completely remove AC from the labyrinth. Instead every character ascents at specific levels. For example 35-65-85 or 40-60-80 which are the levels anyway most people try the labs in each difficulty. Numbers ofcourse can be changed as GGG sees fit
-Regulator

This is the only suggestion that goes 100% in line with every other expansion GGG ever realeased. No gating, free for everyone (like jewel system in the tree) and gratuitous power creeping. Of course making it completely free means that ascension will be just a super OP upgrade to your character without having to do anything for it (like leveling but way more powerful) and will certainly make ascencion feel less rewarding.

II) AC points are also (meaning labyrinth as it is still awards them) awarded from a standalone fight with Izaro. We fight him in 3 stages as it is now but without having to run the labyrinth and the trials (traps, golden doors, puzzles etc) before hand. He awards nothing but AC points, he drops no loot, there is no enchant option and no treasure chests/keys. You cannot party there (only solo). No way to cheese it
-Regulator

In that way AC are still gated but now behind the usual playstyle and not that of arcade games. It keeps the lore and the harder part of the whole labyrinth experience intact.

III) AC points are removed from the labyrinth and are rewarded after killing Malachai in each difficulty.
-Regulator

Upsides of this suggestion include: Malachai now has a reward linked to him, gated behind the usual playstyle, its harder to get. Downside : Lore

IV) Combine II and III. You must kill malachai to gain access to a standalone Izaro fight. Izaro rewards only AC points (no drops, no enchants, nothing at all), has 3 stages, and he is harder too kill/buffed. No party allowed inside Izaro fight. Labyrinth remains as it is now too
-EnjoyTheJourney, Pyrokar, Perq, Turtledove

Honestly the most balanced and win-win suggestion, with absolutely no downside but with many upsides. Malachai has a reward linked to him and Merciless one has a purpose. Lore stays almost 100% intact. Still gated but behind normal PoE (hack and slash/arpg) playstyle (no arcade game silliness). Its way harder to get now providing a challenge.

V) Ascendancy Points could also (labyrinth stays as is) be bought from Cadiro with coins 3k normal - 6k cruel - 9k merciless
-Unknown

AC points become tradable and thus easier to get, soft gate behind currency/coin farming. Lore issues. Cadiro is going away so no coins after this league. Generally not a very well though idea.

VI) New currency : Ascendancy Orb (i dont remember details on this one so ill suggest), rarity same as divines can drop only in 70+ maps, izaro has 100% chance to drop 1 (max) in mercilless only. It can work as 1 ascendancy point respec too. Labyrinthh stays as it is now.
-Unknown

Lore and labyrinth upsides stay intact. You can have early access to AC points or wait until 70+ maps and be lucky enought to get Ascendancy Orbs to drop. It gives another reward to lab runners that they can trade afterwards for more profit. Downsides include : the current labyrinth downsides, gating behind rng + arcade playstyle. A solid suggestion too.

VII) Remove the traps completely, make the labyrinth bigger with more mandatory puzzles/gold doors, keep the ascendancy points there.
-gibbousmoon

A solid suggestion that perfectly adressess paragraphs 3 and 5, while keeping lore almost intact. In addition it promotes no content skipping. The downside : many people like the arcade playstyle the traps offer and would definately be annoyed by a change like that. Furthermore if something like that was implemented and the labyrinth did indeed get bigger with more mandatory puzzles/gold doors, it would make enchantment system a million times more frustrating and boring than it is now.

VIII) Trials by combat. Labyrinth remains as it is now (with all the rewards). A new area is created. The new area might resemble fighting pits/gladiatorial arenas/ but can be anything really, from random wilderness, to a dungeon, to "cinematic" high society illegal fighting setting (like the race event descent champion crowd watching). Opponents would be exiles/warbands kind of enemies from the current pool or even better from a new extended one. There would be 3 stages of Izaro fight like now, before each stage you have to win in a battle versus those opponents. Each fight gets progressively more difficult than the previous, for examble in the first stage there might be 10exiles that not only fight against you but against each other, the second stage the exiles become warband members and they team up against you etc.
-EnjoyTheJourney

A refreshing and fun alternative. It fits the Emperor Izaro theme (loosely based on roman emperors and cretan king Minos) and not only keeps current lore intact but enhances it. Absolutely no downside since even the playstyle resembles that of the rest of the game (ARPG/hack&slash). A very entertaining concept indeed that seems to adress almost every issue.

IX) A combination of the above

Number four with number six could make for an awesome new experience for everyone for example. Give an extra incentive for lab runners (since merci izaro will drop Ascendancy Orbs for them to sell afterwards) and allow those who dislike current labyrinth playstyle to have a fun. Other combinations could work too.


-Ill try to update this section if any new suggestion catches my eye. Also if you know who made suggestions V and VI please link me the thread it was made.

Stats

some stats for the second week of ascendancy

Maps 3,935,376
Merciless Dried Lake 1,188,825
Merciless Docks 732,380
Merciless Solaris 1 667,079
Merciless Labyrinth 235,415

Not including time in Hideouts and Town, the breakdown looks like this :

Normal 40.3575%
Cruel 20.4968%
Merciless 20.4086%
Maps 12.6867%
Labyrinth 6.0503%

Its only natural that the maps percentage and runs will go up as time passes, the same is supposed to happen for lab too. What if though the only reason lab has that "much" attendance is cause of the ascendancy points? they are obviously very strong and they are a reason to lure players to do the new experimental content. The right time to remove AC points from the labyrinth is when they implement the daily rewards for the fastest runners. Lets actually see what is the real percentage of people who are interested in the lab itself.

Deeper Analysis and Proof

I

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Regulator wrote:

For starters its the first time in an expansion that GGG gated such content. With "such" i mean immaterial content aka the ascendancy points that feel way too important, personal and flavourful for character customization, thus making the first non-optional expansion. After all this is an ARPG game where min-maxing and character creation/optimization matter a ton.

Path of Exile wiki - All the information about every expansion so far, in short, GGG has released 4 expansions so far

Sacrifice of the Vaal - Atziri gated items
Forsaken Masters - Masters gated item customization mechanic (crafts)
The Awakening - added Jewel sockets in the tree FOR EVERYONE, new CORE content, Lockstep
Ascendancy - Lab gated item customization mechanic (enchants), gated items (uniques + treasure chest), gated ASCEDANCY POINTS

Lead developer of GGG Chris Wilson also stated the non-optional nature of ascendancy expansion HERE (minute 39 and onwards of the linked video). In short he compared it to atziri and said how putting AC behind it made it instantly not optional.

II

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Regulator wrote:

Even though gating is a dick move, its sometimes needed to make something feel more important. What is the problem though here is that GGG decided that the gate is a completely different game inside PoE. A series and combination of 80' arcade games with 90' action-adventure, aka Indiana Jones meet PoE meet Contra. This has the negative effect of alienating many players who feel excluded from this expansion because they do not find that - obviously different - playstyle fun and/or engaging. PoE can have experimental content, thats fine from and for everyone, but gating something so important behind that is a dumb move from the company

Indiana Jones : Spike Trap
2:50:00 - Lava Floor
3:34:00 - Puzzle to progress
3:58:35 - Spike Trap
3:58:50 - Another Trap


Prince of Persian : Guillotine Trap(not currently in PoE)
10:23 - Timed Cranks
15:44 - Timed Cranks + Spike Traps
25:03 - Using Leap Slam to pass over Spike Traps

Go and check in each video the timestamps. The links might not work correctly but the timestamps are ok

III

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Regulator wrote:

Guess what? there is more. GGG labeled the labyrinth as hard, difficult, skill-based content that will prove to be an alternate end-game. Well they couldnt be more wrong. First of all there is no difficulty issue whatsover, maybe some feel izaro is overtuned for his level but thats easily countered with overleveling or knowing the game mechanics. Second the only skill that someone needs, is to know how to press quicksilver pots or use movement skills. Wait, see pattern of the trap, quicksilver pull lever, and level cleared (just like playing hardcore mario).

Path of Exile: Ascendancy (News Coverage)
You can check every video or article there to see the valitidy of my claims. If you do not have the time to do so, here are some quotes. Take into account how these quotes support also the previous truth.

"The Labyrinth is assembled as if it were a Roguelike game, Wilson said. According to Wilson, each Labyrinth run should take about 45 minutes to an hour"

"Path of Exile's free new Ascendancy expansion looks roguelike-like"

"The Labyrinth leans heavily on the new traps, with complicated patterns that remind me as much of Prince of Persia: Sands of Time"

"The labyrinth is a marathon of horrors, as players will need to set aside an average of 45-60 minutes to complete it. This will be one of the first additions that will introduce roguelike elements to Path of Exile"

Those were the initial estimations, but since you can fucking cheese your way through with quickisilvers, movement speed on gear and movement skills the time has gone down by a lot, to the point where people claim to do lab runs in under five minutes.

IV

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Regulator wrote:

But it gets worse. In a game like PoE where the skill tree and character creation is the main attraction surely people's choices must be (and are) very important. Well... labyrinth and especially traps say FUCK YOUR CHOICES, if x person used 50points on his basic skill tree to get hp and armour while y player used 20 points for hp and armour, regarding traps the person with the less hp has actually an easier time in case he gets hit by a trap. WHAT???? How is that possible you may ask, well its easy, healing pots restore higher percentage to the player with the less flat hp pool. Yeah that happens, and its even worse for certain hybrid or pure ES characters. Ofcourse one's players damage and movement choices are unaffected by the labyrinth. So traps ignore and negate specific mechanics while they allow others to trivilize them.So yeah very well thought and fair system.. not.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Trap Damage is relative to your HP/ES, similar to Righteous Fire. No matter how much HP you have, standing in the middle of a trap like a doofus will get you killed in no time.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Worth noting: most traps seem to deal Damage over Time, dealing more Damage the closer you are to the center of it.

I couldnt find more info on the matter (since you know GGG likes to keep things hidden) but those two quotes from the master Vipermagi are more than enough. Basically since most traps deal percentage damage over time, every skill point on the tree that is spend on armour,evasion,dodge,block, HP, ES, endurance charges is rendered COMPLETELY USELESS. In contrary every movement speed node, damage node, HP regeneration node are not in any way affected.

V

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Regulator wrote:

Its pretty obvious that the labyrinth is dividing the community and for a lot of right reasons. If we take into account PoE's notorius performance issues the matter gets even worse.

That is not an argument directly for labyrinth but for the game in general, and since it happens that the mechanics of the lab are unforgiving it had to be mentioned. I do not believe anyone has anything to say against it. Recent news announcements and how they try to improve the game's performance is enough of evidence that the game sucks on that department.

A poll regarding Labyrinth content made by Sexcalibure

EDIT: Made title, OP and the suggestion more clear. Deeper analysis and proof supporting the suggestion. Added alternatives to ascend. Link to a poll regarding the lab.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Shovelcut makes a reasonable summary of the thread but, apparently doesn't understand that games should be fun.

Sure games should be fun, but removing the challenge isn't going to make it more fun. I absolutely loathe act 4 for multiple reasons yet I'm still going to play even though I don't find that act fun at all. Whether or not every part of the game is fun is subjective.

If one short section of the game (3-4 hours total per char if you're taking your time and not farming enchants, much less if you're just rushing thru because you don't like it) is so not fun for you that you quit playing, maybe you weren't really enjoying the game to begin with. The power that comes from completing the laby should be more than enough incentive to play through it just as the people who don't enjoy the leveling process still make new chars to get to the parts they do enjoy.

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Turtledove wrote:

The main challenge in labyrinth is more like the challenge of cleaning up a public restroom with a pile of vomit in the corner than doing Act 4, at least for some people.

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Turtledove wrote:

Labyrinth is not challenging that is false, for most builds the only challenge is Izaro.

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Turtledove wrote:

Labyrinth is just crappy.

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Turtledove wrote:

It is no where near the same category as someone not liking Act 4, not from the number of people disliking labyrinth. Your analogy falls flat.

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Turtledove wrote:

-Links a bunch of stuff for a third time-

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

It is no where near the same category as someone not liking Act 4, not from the number of people disliking labyrinth. Your analogy falls flat.

Just because you dislike something more than someone else doesn't mean the analogy doesn't fit.

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Turtledove wrote:

-Links a bunch of stuff for a third time-

How many more times are you going to link that? That poll is meaningless btw. xD

Let GGG host their own poll or share the participation stats and then we can talk numbers.

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Turtledove wrote:

You claiming the poll is meaningless is meaningless.

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Shovelcut wrote:

The power that comes from completing the laby should be more than enough incentive to play through it just as the people who don't enjoy the leveling process still make new chars to get to the parts they do enjoy.

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Xtorma wrote:

It proves that a huge majority of the people who took the poll dislike the lab, so it indeed does prove something.