SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

This:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1924432/

to which I responded

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1924432/page/21#p14627670

I doubt the randomization-related changes will be obvious or even apparent in the earlier Labyrinths. For better or worse.

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Fruz wrote:

"doesn't give a fuck" is a bit too strong.

Not even remotely too strong. I've heard more or less that exact statement made explicitly dozens of times in this thread, to say nothing of the number of times it's been implied.

Ah, you mean the rework of the side rewards in the lab, then yeah, that's pretty good, it feels much better exploring and spending a bit more time.
Having the first labs shorter farther improves this ( as previously, there was really no point going to side areas for the normal and cruel lab, now with those shorter .... it's much more of an option ).

About the statements that have been thrown in this thread, don't forget that it has been antagonizing escalation after escalation, and that many statements have been directed at a handful of posters, more than the whole QQing part of the playerbase.

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Turtledove wrote:

You agree with my example proving that GGG has addressed significant issues with the labyrinth. This was done, in large part because of feedback from the player base saying that trap game play was not fun

No.
You have absolutely no way to know that, and everything indicates otherwise :
Traps are now in more and more areas outside of the Lab, and traps are of course inside the lab, in every lab, you have to go through traps, and this is a fact.

GGG has improve things, that are mostly completely unrelated to what this thread was originally about.
Some couple of good suggestion have been made on the way ( by different posters ), that might have influenced GGG, since they went in the same way : rewarding exploration or making Izaro scale more with the difficulty.

So we have :
- couple of players bitching in an obnoxious way, to have the traps removed on the way to AC ( and this has not changed ).
- couple of players giving much more constructive feedback, and that might have had an impact on GGG's decisions since part of it did actually change, got improved.

You should already know the difference by now, or maybe you have seen it but refuse to believe it.
At the end, the lab got improved, but not thank to your list and the OP of this thread.

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emphasy wrote:

Lets see and look at the most recent changes. They are a shorter lab, which provides a better and more gradual learning curve, which is always good and I haven't seen anyone being against it. They also made Izaro easier, which allows doing the lab without overleveling.

However they added traps to multiple of the new areas, so they don't seem to agree that they are an issue. The lab simply had a bad progression if you did them all at their level Normal was the hardest and Merciless the easiest, which was kinda odd.

For me the shorter normal lab actually encouraged me to explore it. Because I wouldn't spend so much time in it and I actually did it on level so the enemies gave me XP and loot I could use at that time. So what those changes did was making the lab fit better into the normal story progression, that is basically all.

So overall if I look at some points that are mentioned here I cannot really see those complains fitting with the changes they made. And many people me included always assumed that they tone down the lab in importance once some time passed like they did with corrupted areas, which got a lower chance to appear after some time just because they caused clutter and just weren't the focus anymore. The Lab and Ascendancy was a 2.0 thing, now is 3.0 time, it was logical lower the focus on the lab to have room to put new things in.

Pretty much.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

The suboptimality is precisely the point for many HC players, especially SSF ones. Balancing shitty gear with passive tree choices, and seeing how far you can get through the content before dying, makes it almost an entirely different game. It can be a refreshing change from SC, even if you do not play it exclusively (and I do not).

Good point, there is definitely this too, although it does correlate to thrill somewhat, you have to take more risks (given that you cannot die and keep going in the same league after) if you do not want to be slowed down.

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Fruz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

You agree with my example proving that GGG has addressed significant issues with the labyrinth. This was done, in large part because of feedback from the player base saying that trap game play was not fun

No.
You have absolutely no way to know that, and everything indicates otherwise :
Traps are now in more and more areas outside of the Lab, and traps are of course inside the lab, in every lab, you have to go through traps, and this is a fact.

GGG has improve things, that are mostly completely unrelated to what this thread was originally about.
Some couple of good suggestion have been made on the way ( by different posters ), that might have influenced GGG, since they went in the same way : rewarding exploration or making Izaro scale more with the difficulty.

So we have :
- couple of players bitching in an obnoxious way, to have the traps removed on the way to AC ( and this has not changed ).
- couple of players giving much more constructive feedback, and that might have had an impact on GGG's decisions since part of it did actually change, got improved.

You should already know the difference by now, or maybe you have seen it but refuse to believe it.
At the end, the lab got improved, but not thank to your list and the OP of this thread.

GGG put out a thread saying

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the first Labyrinth we are removing some of the areas in the leadup to each fight with Izaro

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1899252

Why was that proposed by GGG? They say in the OP because of the feedback since the labyrinth was added.

After the shit storm of labyrinth hate that came spilling out in that thread, GGG cut way back on the trap game play and made similar change for the second labyrinth as well.

So your assertion that we have no way of knowing why GGG did what they did is a delusional denial on your part. We can simply believe what GGG explicitly stated.

You called me a delusional liar because I said those changes were similar to two ideas in the OP of this thread. You said they weren't similar enough to use the word similar and that I was a delusional liar. What does that mean? Well lie means telling an untruth to deceive. A delusional liar I suppose, would mean a lie to deceive but so ridiculous that I was delusional to think anyone could believe that I believed what I said. That is a ridiculous assertion. I didn't lie. Did you just tell a delusional lie? I don't think so. I think that you actually believe your delusions.

It's exactly what they said:
"we removed some areas".
Traps are still there, and you still need to go through there.

Now believung that "because of feedback" =
"because of this joke of a thread" is stupid.

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Emphasy wrote:

So overall if I look at some points that are mentioned here I cannot really see those complains fitting with the changes they made. And many people me included always assumed that they tone down the lab in importance once some time passed like they did with corrupted areas, which got a lower chance to appear after some time just because they caused clutter and just weren't the focus anymore. The Lab and Ascendancy was a 2.0 thing, now is 3.0 time, it was logical lower the focus on the lab to have room to put new things in.

enough said.

If it was like this fruz then they would have "toned it down" in merciless and map lab as well. But those are longer/harder?

It's more likely that they did it for new players and/or because of this feedback. Can't own someone's soul until you get them to play maps and finish the story as they said. Mario clearly wan't helping them.

Good thing is that, now that they have finished the game story, they can focus on removing the mario tumor of their game. And these changes were probably the first incision.

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Fruz wrote:

It's exactly what they said:
"we removed some areas".
Traps are still there, and you still need to go through there.

Now believung that "because of feedback" =
"because of this joke of a thread" is stupid.

I said

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Turtledove wrote:

You agree with my example proving that GGG has addressed significant issues with the labyrinth. This was done, in large part because of feedback from the player base saying that trap game play was not fun

You responded with the flat out denial.

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Fruz wrote:

No.
You have absolutely no way to know that, and everything indicates otherwise

Mr. Fuz, I flat out proved that you were wrong. GGG explicitly stated that they did it because of the feedback. I pointed to the thread where GGG explicitly said that. I accused you of being in denial and you have proven that your state of denial is so bad that you're still in that same state of denial.

I never said just this thread but many hundreds of other threads as well. I also never claimed that GGG looked in the OP of this thread and picked a solution that was there. The feedback on the trap gauntlets has been constant and continuous since labyrinth released. GGG recognizes that it is important to fix this and they have made a very good start in 3.0.

Just started a new 3.0 character in Harbinger. Got her to maps. Did two of the trials in maps. Finished both.

I fucking hate this. Not fun.

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Pyrokar wrote:

If it was like this fruz then they would have "toned it down" in merciless and map lab as well. But those are longer/harder?

Actually, I just noticed today that they put the golden key in the same area than the door in the merc lab, which makes it slightly faster it seems.
The rewards for the side areas/optional monsters are also better, and the shrines have no risk, but give bonuses systematically.

Of course they did pay attention to the feedback that they have, but since what they did does not go the way the OP wants, and that they have been stating several times that they have no plan to remove the points from the lab, or remove traps (and keep adding them in other parts of the game) .... they have been listening and considering some feedback, just no the OP ( some others in the thread though, likely ).


Uber lab is still supposed to be a challenge though, I don't think that we'll have this one make easier every.

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Turtledove wrote:

Mr. Fuz, I flat out proved that you were wrong

No you didn't.
You have answered nothing.
They have listened to some feedback.
But nothing indicate that they have done what they have done because og "the player base saying that trap game play was not fun" lol.
In fact, we are getting traps in more and more areas of the game, clear indication of the opposite.

And yes, you have stated that GGG specifically listened to some of the feedback of the OP and partly implemented some of it, in this thread or another.
Which nothing indicates obviously, if anything, everything indicates otherwise.

For the record I have done 3/4 labs so far and made over 15c in crap from them and still dislike the whole trap bullshit. Expansion is fun but I will probably emo spiral for another year on uber lab when I do it. Fortunately is doesn't give my build that much (30% minion damage) so I will probally ignore it till I am like 92ish.

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Emphasy wrote:

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raics wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I disagree, as do probably thousands of other HC players.

Your premise appears to be that any game relying extremely heavily upon iteration in order to obtain optimal power (gear) is intrinsically unsuited to a gameplay style which is not "autopilot" style.

I know, because it kinda works. Just saying I wouldn't call it exactly an optimal environment.

The thing is most HC players concentrate on the autopilot parts anyway and ignore the ones that are actually engaging because they are also the only parts that could put you at risk of dying. Before they lowered the min xp you could get people actually leveled to insanely high levels without even entering maps, which was likely not very efficient but very safe.

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A more useful track for this thread to take is to analyze and discuss those most recent changes.

Lets see and look at the most recent changes. They are a shorter lab, which provides a better and more gradual learning curve, which is always good and I haven't seen anyone being against it. They also made Izaro easier, which allows doing the lab without overleveling.

However they added traps to multiple of the new areas, so they don't seem to agree that they are an issue. The lab simply had a bad progression if you did them all at their level Normal was the hardest and Merciless the easiest, which was kinda odd.

For me the shorter normal lab actually encouraged me to explore it. Because I wouldn't spend so much time in it and I actually did it on level so the enemies gave me XP and loot I could use at that time. So what those changes did was making the lab fit better into the normal story progression, that is basically all.

So overall if I look at some points that are mentioned here I cannot really see those complains fitting with the changes they made. And many people me included always assumed that they tone down the lab in importance once some time passed like they did with corrupted areas, which got a lower chance to appear after some time just because they caused clutter and just weren't the focus anymore. The Lab and Ascendancy was a 2.0 thing, now is 3.0 time, it was logical lower the focus on the lab to have room to put new things in.

Actually I disagree, the first 2 are a joke and the third one dies so fast I didn't even learn any of the mechanics (from a newbie perspective) then the 4th is hard.

If they had a training ground (they can even charge an alch and give no loot) that would go a long way to help learn the final fight.

But the third I just circled him and hit my attack key when safe and he died. From my perspective I think that's the issue the first 3 really don't hit that hard if you fuck up then the 4th will 1 shot you and you waste another 15-20 minutes getting back to die again with maybe a total of 20 tried by that point.

The trials are still boring and pointless too.

Also the uber lab loot is insane. PressStartToPaws (one of the better hardcore streamers , she made 100 hardcore and usually has 3-4 90+ by end of league) has made over 1000 C in mats farming uber league so far.

It's a bribe more than fun.