SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Fruz wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

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I already replied to this, I never said that the lab was solely responsible for the game's growth.
But the fact is : the game is growing, with the lab in it, which means that if it actually was an issue, it would not be a big enough one to isgnificantly slow the game down.
Ascendancy being the main things introduced in 2.0.0 ....

The games growth has absolutely nothing to do with the lab. I would imaging the majority of new players don't even know of it's existence.

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And the only reason that people go kill the deep dweller or do the Fairgraves' side quest, is also to fill out their character.
Granted, those other side quests are much quicker and easier than the lab, but it does not remove the fact that it is the only reason why people do those.

You keep using this specious argument and it just doesn't hold water. These quests don't remove a player from the main game, they also don't require knowledge of traps and other Prince of Persia like nonsense.

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Kellog wrote:

The games growth has absolutely nothing to do with the lab. I would imaging the majority of new players don't even know of it's existence.

I think his point is more that it isn't hampering its growth, as the lab is accused of 'ruining the game' and being the 'harbinger of downfall' often enough.

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Kellog wrote:

You keep using this specious argument and it just doesn't hold water. These quests don't remove a player from the main game, they also don't require knowledge of traps and other Prince of Persia like nonsense.

Quests for bonus points give you more of something you're already getting but don't remove you from the game. Ascending removes you from the game but gives you something you can't get in the game otherwise. Seems fair to me and the amount of power you're getting is relative to the time spent on either.

Though we could say that both technically halt your campaign progress. Does it really matter if you're doing it in an area that is closely connected to the compulsory section or a bit further? Not that either is exactly hard to reach.

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Fruz wrote:

Granted, those other side quests are much quicker and easier than the lab, but it does not remove the fact that it is the only reason why people do those.

So you are comparing quest like Deshret to the lab? That they are the same "carrots"?
Lol. I can't even say how much BS this statement is.
All those quests you are doing when you are in the location already (sometimes even earlier than the main quest line depending on the map RNG).
Hell, when I was in A4 first I did not even know Deshret was some kind of quest. Just when later I went to Tasuni with some DivCards I learned that there is any reward for it.

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Nishrek wrote:

So you are comparing quest like Deshret to the lab? That they are the same "carrots"?
Lol. I can't even say how much BS this statement is.

So, you are basically saying there that you're killing deep dweller and fetching allflame because it's interesting and fun. Of course it's a carrot, just a smaller one on a shorter stick but the concept is the same.

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raics wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

The games growth has absolutely nothing to do with the lab. I would imaging the majority of new players don't even know of it's existence.

I think his point is more that it isn't hampering its growth, as the lab is accused of 'ruining the game' and being the 'harbinger of downfall' often enough.

That's fair enough. I also don't see the growth being affected by the inclusion of the lab. I also wouldn't say it's ruined the game or will be it's downfall. For me personally, it's just something that has to be done, a bit like trips to the Dentist.

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Quests for bonus points give you more of something you're already getting but don't remove you from the game. Ascending removes you from the game but gives you something you can't get in the game otherwise. Seems fair to me and the amount of power you're getting is relative to the time spent on either.

I have no issue with having to run separate maps/regions/whatever to receive additional goodies and as far as I'm concerned, GGG could make it as hard as they wish. What I do object to are the ridiculous machinations involved in getting to the good bits.

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Though we could say that both technically halt your campaign progress. Does it really matter if you're doing it in an area that is closely connected to the compulsory section or a bit further? Not that either is exactly hard to reach.

In terms of the ongoing discussion, I think it does matter. Taking a small detour to complete an inline quest is just not the same as running the lab. The lab is more akin to running maps, however, if something goes tits-up in the lab, it's time to start over. That in itself is a major cause of frustration. Then there's all the playground attractions to get through, which for some may be a breeze but for many others they're an asinine irritation.

The whole game is "carrot/stick" ... RPGs are "go here, kill this/get this/destroy this/take this thing here" and get experience/gold/items to make yourself stronger (or advance a storyline.)

There is no issue with the allflame or deshret or deep dweller because they're just normal gameplay quests with better rewards. There IS an issue with the Labyrinth because it's a mini-game, where the obstacles involved ignore most of your character building and the gameplay becomes avoid trap, instead of kill monster. It's very different in key ways. And since it ignores so much of your build choices, I even say it's not a challenge that proves you're good at playing PoE, you're just good at playing Labyrinth.

There's the difference.

My messages are mainly for GGG, and I don't care how many other posters agree or disagree. I find this to be a design problem for PoE, in context with the rest of the game's content. It does ruin PoE for many people -- not enough for GGG to do much about it, yet... but I think it finds itself on the same irritation list that "repeating the game 3 times" found itself on, and we'll eventually see bigger changes, and hopefully, an alternative provided.

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Zaludoz wrote:

There is no issue with the allflame or deshret or deep dweller because they're just normal gameplay quests with better rewards. There IS an issue with the Labyrinth because it's a mini-game, where the obstacles involved ignore most of your character building and the gameplay becomes avoid trap, instead of kill monster.

Now why am I not surprised at seeing nobody raising a fuss because Ascendancy bonuses are different from the normal quest rewards and it's a crime against nature that labyrinth is different from normal quests. I understand, it's a minor detail, easily slips through the cracks.

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raics wrote:

So, you are basically saying there that you're killing deep dweller and fetching allflame because it's interesting and fun.

Yes I do. Fetching deep dweller is 100% the same gameplay, as rest of PoE (especially if you play 1st time)
Killing monsters, exploring places and getting loot is fun. It is what aRPG is about.
Also I often find Allflame before Merivell caves, because of random map
BTW I've already shown you an example of Deshret, why she is not a "carrot"

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raics wrote:

Now why am I not surprised at seeing nobody raising a fuss because Ascendancy bonuses are different from the normal quest rewards and it's a crime against nature that labyrinth is different from normal quests.

Maybe because getting rewards from quests is an inherent and obvious thing in H&S game. Playing platform minigames is not.

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Nishrek wrote:

BTW I've already shown you an example of Deshret, why she is not a "carrot"

What a coincidence, I'm also freeing her out of the goodness of my heart.

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Fruz wrote:

@Phrazz : I was refering to this :

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Phrazz wrote:

traps ARE associated with platform games. Trap gameplay are something a lot of us feel doesn't belong in this genre

Maybe I should have said "traps are not completely foreign to arpgs, at all" instead.

I know you were referring to that, but when you "paraphrase"/interpret WRONG, you make it seem like I said something I didn't. So yes, better this time around.

And when it come to all these "liars" - you know there can be lots of people finding the lab hard and needs help, while A LOT of people finds it easy? Let me ask you directly; How many players claiming to find the lab easy, have YOU proven to be liars?