SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

Turtledove wrote:

Regarding your patch notes comments, the terms being discussed are not black and white. Different organizations and points of view can refer to these terms in different ways within different contexts. That means that a certain definition within one context is not the correct definition for all contexts.

The wording in the patchnotes was but an example.
Another element to consider :
Usually, when you "fix" a bug, it's a problem where when the solution is reached, it's done, no need to go back on it (if it has really been fixed).
If a similar issue happens in the future because of collateral changes, then ... it could be another bug, but that looks the same, but inside, it will be a different issue, even if so slightly.

However, there will never be a perfect state of balance, you cannot completely say that a balance issue has been "fixed".
Is that 60% coefficient on ES a "fix" ?
Why is it not 59% ? or 61% ?
It's neither because it's not a bug, and there will never be a "definite" solution to the balance problems, and it will keep evolving.

"

andreicde wrote:

Honestly the whole gating ascendancy behind lab is complete and utter BS. Before someone pulls a ''you also want everything easy peasy'', Lab is nr 1 thing that rips characters in HC because it's not optimized for all builds, it's a mix of both fighting and traps which hinders some builds.

Nothing is "optimized" for all builds in the game, period.
N1 HC killer ?
If you had not tried to pull random stuff out of your .... you would have stay more credible maybe, but you are only showing that you don't know what you are talking about, you have no idea about this, but you've never gone over lvl 60 in HC anyway so ...

The fact that some layouts are easier than others does exactly the same as the rest of the game as it's all Rng, some maps will be piss easy some some combination while being very risky with some others, same for boxes, same for essence monsters, same for even some particular rare with a specific mods combination.
It's all Rng, nothing new about this.

I used to think that lab was a bit too harsh on summoners, until I saw some people (summoners, spepcters) claiming that they would go through the lab, not loosing a single minion.

The Izaro mechanics with the current AI might be another story though, not sure.

"

Phrazz wrote:

1: A boss fight, where you have to avoid certain attacks, and then get in position to kill him
2: A themed part of the game, designed around traps you have to avoid, for no apparent other than making to get from A to B more "challenging"?

I guess that the main reason is "the game is trying to kill your character", like how the game used to be .... before people started thinking of it as "the game that gives you targets so that you can destroy them and lvl up".
I think that there is a middle ground to find there, it's not completely like the rest of the game, but there are clear similarities as he pointed out.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Yes, it's about "avoiding" damage, but it's far from the same thing, no matter how hard to try to argument the case. Following your logic, every game in the world is about the "same thing". Please...

Well no, there are so many game types ... card games don't require you to position anything to avoid damage, usually :).

"

k1rage wrote:

I want the option to out gear it and out level it like everything else in game

I play HC

I only get one chance

I am sorry, but it does kind of sound like "I want a possibility to have the game being easy, because I don't want to die in HC".

"

andreicde wrote:

"

andreicde wrote:

Honestly the whole gating ascendancy behind lab is complete and utter BS. Before someone pulls a ''you also want everything easy peasy'', Lab is nr 1 thing that rips characters in HC because it's not optimized for all builds, it's a mix of both fighting and traps which hinders some builds.

Let's take for example a summoner, and we not talking an srs, but a summoner using spectres, zombies,golem and possibly skeletons. You have close to 13-14 minions moving on the screen even when you stand still everywhere. Lab has the bad habit of including traps which are not always obvious or push you into more traps. Darts for instance are the perfect example with their 70% slow which could be lethal if combined with a saw passing right through you. As a summoner it's a hard choice because on one end without minions traps would be much easier, but then monsters would be the issue. Lab either needs to be traps only and no fighting or fighting and no traps.

The other big issue is the fact layout is randomized, which means some combos will screw you even further. Some layouts are cake, while others make you want to bang your head on a wall. A bs layout I found in a final itzaro room had 3/4 of the map blocked due to fire on 2 sides, 6 darts divided into 3 on each side severely restricting your movement area. Add on the top of that itzaro and 14 minions covering half of the screen. On the other hand an RF build might simply laugh at that thing and deal with this np.

Lab would have been great to give uniques only and better rewards, but not ascendancy points. This just makes it feel mandatory (yes it might not be needed, but then again with that logic it's not needed to go further than Hillock in twilight normal, you could just farm monsters there for days). If they keep adding more content like that, it will just make even more players give up on the game .

Edit: Also this comes from a guy that played guild wars 2 where the same BS happen, where they started adding platformer crap in endgame content. If I want that, I'd play Mario

You can edit without quoting yourself. Just press the E next to the q you pressed for the quote under your name.

On topic. I agree. GGG tried to make the lab experience equal to all builds and failed miserably.

I just want the lab to follow the rules of the rest of the games content....

"

Fruz wrote:

I used to think that lab was a bit too harsh on summoners, until I saw some people (summoners, spepcters) claiming that they would go through the lab, not loosing a single minion.

Yeah, it isn't really, I play summoners a fair bit and it usually isn't a full spec but you still lose minions very rarely (except for that bleed sentinel which is an oversight most likely as all other traps have a minion penalty, maybe it was even fixed in the meantime).

If you got a lot of zombies they might obscure some traps because they like to keep close but the boss fights are pretty easy with a summoner so it balances out. And you can just use less zombies, not that you need the full roster much in trap segments.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I'm saying that complaining about traps is the same as complaining about any encounter where you know where to avoid. MMO, ARPG, doesn't really matter specifically.

You are wrong, in a very boring way, as you look at it from a narrow, technically view.

Games are about fun. You play them to be entertained. And before you start: No, that does not mean "easy". "hard and challenging" can be fun, if done right. The lab fails at bot. But over to my point: A boss fight is isolated, music, animation, design, effects, adrenaline, tactics - the whole god damn picture - the mood. Where you have to dodge in an instant, reflexes.

Traps? You run past them or over them, for no apparent reason other than "just shit you got to do to get to the boss encounter, to try and make it interesting, something it fails to do in many player's eyes".

HOW you can view these two the same, is beyond me, unless you're looking at it from a 100% technical view, without even ONE thought directed at game play and fun - in a video game environment.

I'm very baffled.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Games are about fun. You play them to be entertained. And before you start: No, that does not mean "easy". "hard and challenging" can be fun, if done right. The lab fails at bot. But over to my point: A boss fight is isolated, music, animation, design, effects, adrenaline, tactics - the whole god damn picture - the mood. Where you have to dodge in an instant, reflexes.

Well, then 95% of the bosses in the game fail too, no mood, no music, no adrenaline and so on.

But they probably don't. As I said before we're mostly old players here and our views are heavily skewed, I'm sure plenty of less accomplished players are having a blast with those same bosses. Maybe we aren't having fun with them (unless curbstomping is your idea of fun), but as long as enough people do it's fine.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Traps? You run past them or over them, for no apparent reason other than "just shit you got to do to get to the boss encounter, to try and make it interesting, something it fails to do in many player's eyes".

HOW you can view these two the same, is beyond me, unless you're looking at it from a 100% technical view, without even ONE thought directed at game play and fun - in a video game environment.

I'm very baffled.

Traps build off of what you've been introduced to though. In normal they have less of them, less threat, but its an introduction, by merciless they are more complicated have patterns that are still predictable, but not usually just strait line mechanics and by uber lab they added on additional challenges, which for the most part can be destroyed.

The lore behind the encounter is out there, but essentially the boss is in the lab with traps of his own creation. Without the traps, the lab doesn't feel right, without the multiple stage boss the content doesn't feel right, but put them both together and it sort of just works.


Of course everyone isn't going to like it because it can't fully be overleveled, it can't be achieved without running thru it, even if you do get help in various ways, it isn't as easy as "take my tp and wait outside" so of course naturally people are going to complain about the challenge.



I mean a prime example that proves that at least some people that complain about the lab are full of shit is people like earlier that make statements like "lab is #1 hc killer" How is GGG or anyone suppose to take you all seriously when you have people like that posting?

I've always loved that traps FORCE you to slow down. Some builds can easily plow through them still but for the most part you need to pay attention, even at level 100 because they scale. Traps are one of my favorite parts of the lab. No matter how disgusting your gear is they still keep you humble.

"

coaa wrote:

I've always loved that traps FORCE you to slow down. Some builds can easily plow through them still but for the most part you need to pay attention, even at level 100 because they scale. Traps are one of my favorite parts of the lab. No matter how disgusting your gear is they still keep you humble.

you must not drink....

"

coaa wrote:

I've always loved that traps FORCE you to slow down. Some builds can easily plow through them still but for the most part you need to pay attention, even at level 100 because they scale. Traps are one of my favorite parts of the lab. No matter how disgusting your gear is they still keep you humble.

Thank you for voicing your opinion for the lab, you are the xxth on the l...

err, nop, I can't do it :P.



Ironically, the most efficient way to go through the lab is to rush as fast as you can ...
I wish it wasn't like that. but it is, it requires a lot of movement speed though, but still.