SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Xavathos wrote:

Spoiler

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Zalhan2 wrote:

Your wrong there is no change. There is nothing behind the door. The GGG lovers said, no proclaimed, no guaranteed there would NEVER be a change and pleaded with GGG to lock this thread to prevent the "Haters" from wasting their time posting here.

If you meant me by that, that is quite narrow-minded. I never pleaded to lock the thread in the first place, but I said I was considering it because it's nothing but a flame war. There is no discussion here, it's a cesspool of hate. Everyone is just here for their own personal gain, while none of us have anything to gain to begin with. It's pointless to have a list of lovers and haters of content that isn't our to change.

Now, like I said, if we would actually work TOGETHER to formulate a decent solution we can mostly get behind and bring that forward to the development team, I'm sure they'd at least consider it. That is not happening the way this thread is being abused right now.

The defenders are way too defensive and will not budge an inch and the offenders are "recruiting" left and right so desperately that every nonsense post like "lab sucks" gets voted onto their listings. The list sucks, there's my feedback. Get rid of it and be critical even to your peers who are complaining about the same thing. Realize that just an opinion isn't enough to fix something. Have a discussion like adults should, then maybe we'll get somewhere by page 700.

Change will come regardless. Now's our chance to have a say in how, together. So speak up, but also remember to listen.

Good post.

The problem, as I see it, is all these "my way or the highway" arguments. No room for compromises, so to speak. And as long as there's no room for compromises, there's no room for a debate.

My "handicap" in this debate isn't that I'm not willing to compromise, but;

I view myself as a fairly empathic person. But if we see through the Ascendancy Points, enchantments and the direct rewards you get from running the lab, I struggle very hard to see how people can actually like the gameplay, the content, the design in the lab. How they can have fun from A to B in the lab. I'm fairly sure that some "pro lab" people in here, don't find the lab "that" fun, but are just OK with "enduring" because of the rewards.

And I'm totally OK with having to "earn" my points doing challenging content. But challenging content can be fun and interesting, and in my eyes, the lab fails hard at that. And that's one of the keys here; if they change it by removing some traps, it's still the same content, only less challenging. And "less challenging" isn't what I want. Interesting, fun and challenging. So those three elements should be directing GGG in the choices they make to the lab/AP.

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Phrazz wrote:

And I'm totally OK with having to "earn" my points doing challenging content. But challenging content can be fun and interesting, and in my eyes, the lab fails hard at that. And that's one of the keys here; if they change it by removing some traps, it's still the same content, only less challenging. And "less challenging" isn't what I want. Interesting, fun and challenging. So those three elements should be directing GGG in the choices they make to the lab/AP.

That's what I was talking about yesterday. You made some good lab tweak suggestions looking to improve it and devs haven't improved it in beta, they made it less annoying. Some would still consider it an improvement but there's a clear difference to me.

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raics wrote:

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The_Reporter wrote:

These guys don't know what they're arguing for or against anymore. It's just trolling for the sake of trolling.

So, you're saying you play a support build solo? Must be some new beta-meta.

Though I'd wager on being able to do it solo with a support build if absolutely needed, and I'm not exactly a crack player, anyone could do it then.

I have built solo support characters in the past, ask regulator. When blasphemy came out i did a tri curse ci bf witch when everybody said that blasphemy was crap ;P

Not to mention that blade fall was a new skill and utterly broken like GGG likes to release them nowadays. I bet most support characters could literally just support themselves just by using what new skill is introduced each league.

And instead of looking at what really is making this game a casualfest, we have people here complaining about people complaining about the lab being made interesting and fun.

So i ask myself. Are they really that simple or do they just wanna divert the attention of the real cause that leads PoE to where it is going. Because from some previous responses, it is clear to me that said people do not really want PoE to be the game it can be as long as they have it their way. The easy way.

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Pyrokar wrote:

And instead of looking at what really is making this game a casualfest, we have people here complaining about people complaining about the lab made interesting and fun.

Don't remind me, after writing the text worth a small novel on the subject I had to declare it a lost cause, way too many arrows point in that direction. Doesn't sit well with me but I can accept it, I'd just leave otherwise like PT did.

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Xavathos wrote:

It's not the OP that I'm talking about though. Just that having a list is not the way

Sure but no lab-lover can say anything, except (in essence) "Lab is ok, get lost, L2P" or one of other statements I've listed.

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Nishrek wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

It's not the OP that I'm talking about though. Just that having a list is not the way

Sure but no lab-lover can say anything, except (in essence) "Lab is ok, get lost, L2P" or one of other statements I've listed.

And like I said, that's the problem. I'm not saying only those against the Lab are at fault here, everyone is. And unless we start changing that, 3.0 will be released and no significant changes will have been made. Any changes from there will be incremental at best. It could take a year to turn something around completely. Beta is where you can do something drastic like that without risking backlash, so now's the time to show your best ideas, not back and forth slapping each other in the face with a wet fish. It hasn't been amusing for about 600 pages and it's not getting any of us anywhere.

Which is fine by me, because as it so happens, I'm on neither side of this argument now. :)
If it changes, fine by me, hope it makes more people happy. If it doesn't, fine by me, I have no problems with the Lab.

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raics wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

And I'm totally OK with having to "earn" my points doing challenging content. But challenging content can be fun and interesting, and in my eyes, the lab fails hard at that. And that's one of the keys here; if they change it by removing some traps, it's still the same content, only less challenging. And "less challenging" isn't what I want. Interesting, fun and challenging. So those three elements should be directing GGG in the choices they make to the lab/AP.

That's what I was talking about yesterday. You made some good lab tweak suggestions looking to improve it and devs haven't improved it in beta, they made it less annoying. Some would still consider it an improvement but there's a clear difference to me.

They clearly didn't want to spend lots of resources on the lab for now.

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raics wrote:

Though I'd wager on being able to do it solo with a support build if absolutely needed, and I'm not exactly a crack player, anyone could do it then.

Of course, you can always tweak your characters to do some solo content.
But GGG allowing/encouraging a supporting archetype, but then making the lab solo only ?
That would just be stupid.
There are other ways to make carrying another through the lab harder to do.

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Nishrek wrote:

OP has many ideas. Better or worse ideas, but he at least makes an effort and shows why he thinks it should be changed.

OP is completely closed to anything that does not go his way, he is twisting other's words and trying to make things looking like what they aren't, like what I pointed out one or two pages ago.
He literally took a video where the player felt pretty fucking happy about the changes and didn't mind the new lab at all (his words), and said "showing how really boring and alienating this content is."

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Phrazz wrote:

I view myself as a fairly empathic person. But if we see through the Ascendancy Points, enchantments and the direct rewards you get from running the lab, I struggle very hard to see how people can actually like the gameplay, the content, the design in the lab. How they can have fun from A to B in the lab. I'm fairly sure that some "pro lab" people in here, don't find the lab "that" fun, but are just OK with "enduring" because of the rewards.

And where are you going with that ?
I mean, fun is subjective enough so that one can not understand how others exactly get their fun for everything, so ...

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Pyrokar wrote:

And instead of looking at what really is making this game a casualfest, we have people here complaining about people complaining about the lab made interesting and fun.

If you want to make the same something else than a casual fest (as it is becoming), why are you spending so much time here instead of where the real problems lie then ?
How ridiculous is it to think that anybody posting here does not give feedback about other parts of the game (unrelated to this thread, you're the one going off topic here) elsewhere ?
Or don't you have actually anything to say but such fallacies ?

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Nishrek wrote:

Sure but no lab-lover can say anything, except (in essence) "Lab is ok, get lost, L2P" or one of other statements I've listed.

Actually, if you would open your eyes, you would see very quickly that most do have things that they would like improved in the lab.

I am pretty sure you can find posts of mine both in here and in general discussion criticising and warning GGG to not make this game any easier or limit build diversity by having the choices being made obvious, but like raics i've made my peace with it.

So you can understand how dumbstruck i feel every time i see those stupid responses. The dumb, it strikes me. Don't strike me with the dumb please.

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Fruz wrote:

And where are you going with that ?
I mean, fun is subjective enough so that one can not understand how others exactly get their fun for everything, so ...

I wasn't really going anywhere with that. I'm just saying that if some people are only getting their "fun" at the end of the lab, with the Izaro fight, ascendancy points, enchantments and the loot, I struggle to see what the hell they are defending. Will a mundane, uninteresting wiggle through a labyrinth make beating Izaro more "rewarding"? Hardly. Does it make us appreciate the loot more? Naah.

But if you find the labyrinth fun and interesting outside of the loot, points and fights, that quoted paragraph wasn't meant for you :)

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Fruz wrote:

Actually, if you would open your eyes, you would see very quickly that most do have things that they would like improved in the lab.

Please, show me. Open my eyes and enlighten me.
And answer my lore question (if the answer is not some "I think X" without any basis in the game or lore)