SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Phrazz wrote:

That comparison doesn't really deserve an answer, because it's not really comparable to my point at all. I hope I don't have to elaborate on that for you :)

It isn't really a comparison, just a reminder. They're keeping the linking process in the game, mostly unchanged since introduction and, as far as I know, not many players have anything good to say about it.

So, they're intentionally keeping a mechanic around that's risky, tedious, probably not fun in the slightest unless you got a gambling problem. You have the option to skip it but it's seldom used because the rate is unfavorable. Who knows, maybe I was right before and the game really isn't supposed to be all rainbows and ponies, maybe the lab alternative would be so bad nobody would use it.

It would muzzle us very efficiently, though, every time somebody complains about linking now they can say 'if you don't like it just pay Vorici'. Maybe it would be better if we didn't get a lab alternative.

I am trying to think of something worse than the lab and i just can't. Even Mario64 does it better.

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

If they give you the option to skip normal and cruel level labs, they are accepting that people want to do it less

I'm not trying to dismiss most of your post. You have solid points, and no, I'm not participating in the BETA, so I can't speak about the difficulty curve, and how Ascendancy Points fits in.

But the sentence I quoted, deserves to be read a thousand times. Why in the world shouldn't GGG ACCEPT and RESPECT that players WANT to do it less, if that's the case? If players WANT to do it less, shouldn't they builds around that "fact"?

"Ok, listen up, people want to do the lab less because of 100 different reasons, so we need to "encourage"(read: force?) them to do it by adding content that requires the points". Is this what you think is going on?

Where's the "fun factor"? Games can be both fun AND hard/challenging. Please bring THAT on.

If you haven't played beta then you don't understand what I really mean by encouraging people to do it.

Lets compare it to getting the optional passive points while leveling, its not uncommon now for people to skip them and go back and get them later, similar to your lab. Because to me GGG has made it too easy to progress thru the story. One might say it should be easy, because the focus should be on endgame content, but if you say that, why have us level subsequent characters at all then? Why not make it so if you hit 85 you can create a character that is level 65 and has completed all of the quest?

Thats an additional option, now think about why that would be bad. Well leveling items are no longer important. The difficulty of the content initially is and subsequent runs (for people that might want to level or don't reach level 85) with twink gear all have to play into it.

No one can really dispute that in most cases no one would just do the uber lab, so you are at most cutting out 2 labs, both of which they made shorter. (the normal and cruel equiv labs are shorter in the beta), again something you would know if you kept informed on the topic.

So saving 20 min, maybe 30 min of total time per character is enough for GGG to spend however long it takes to implement all the options you and others can think of?


I don't think act 5-10 should "require" as there is no metric in measuring the power the AC points provide, but I feel like if anyone is complaining about the difficulty of the content and choosing not to do the lab and get the points when they could, that feedback should largely be ignored. To me its ignorant to complain about something being more difficult to you and you doing nothing to make it easier for yourself (like doing the optional passive points or getting your AC points)



Accept and respect, players need to accept and respect the design of the game put forth, which includes the lab. It goes both ways IMO and if you are refusing to do something because you don't enjoy it you only have yourself to blame.

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goetzjam wrote:

Accept and respect, players need to accept and respect the design of the game put forth, which includes the lab. It goes both ways IMO and if you are refusing to do something because you don't enjoy it you only have yourself to blame.

Of course it goes both ways, no one is disputing that. But I don't always have "myself to blame" when I don't enjoy doing something. Sometimes the design is just bad, and makes a lot of people not "enjoy it". "I think" that is why some video games fails at becoming successes, they fail at making something "enjoyable", and it can hardly be blamed on "all the players".

Regardless, I do respect GGG, of course I do. I respect them so much that when I think they've made a bad decision, I use THEIR channels (you know, feedback forums) to tell them that. That's why these forums are here. If they didn't want us to share our sides of the picture, why add a feedback forum? It would be disrespectful of me not to.

So no, it's not (only) my fault when I (and "lots" of others) don't enjoy something. It may as well be the design. But that is a taboo, right? GGG can't be wrong regarding this? The labyrinth is a 100% success story?

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Accept and respect, players need to accept and respect the design of the game put forth, which includes the lab. It goes both ways IMO and if you are refusing to do something because you don't enjoy it you only have yourself to blame.

Of course it goes both ways, no one is disputing that. But I don't always have "myself to blame" when I don't enjoy doing something. Sometimes the design is just bad, and makes a lot of people not "enjoy it". I think that is why some video games fails at becoming successes, they fail at making something "enjoyable", and it can hardly be blamed on "all the players".

Regardless, I do respect GGG, of course I do. I respect them so much that when I think they've made a bad decision, I use THEIR channels (you know, feedback forums) to tell them that. That's why these forums are here. If they didn't want us to share our sides of the picture, why add a feedback forum?

So no, it's not (only) my fault when I (and "lots" of others) don't enjoy something. It may as well be the design. But that is a taboo, right? GGG can't be wrong regarding this? The labyrinth is a 100% success story?

And I'm glad you are giving feedback, it seems like you only want to be heard, however there are many people in this very thread that don't accept anything and don't respect GGG either.


In terms of fault, that is purely on the indication of complaining about difficulty, when you can do something yourself to change it. (which again was back to the point of the new content added that you have no experience with) Similarly your commenting about the lab as is now, instead of the adjusted lab in 3.0



I think people in this thread need to be informed of the changes and implications of the 3.0 changes, not only to the lab, but the rest of the game, only then will the post be relevant.

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The_Reporter wrote:

It's not about difficulty. Lab isn't difficult and is easily cheesed. It's always annoying, repetitive, simple minded and terribly designed.

See this is why this thread needs to be more heavily moderated, its clear you are either trolling or don't care enough to read into the conversation, in either case your post is an indication of your low effort self.


The difficulty I am referring to has to do with the new content GGG is adding with 3.0, the act 5-10 specifically, you would know this if you paid attention and its clear you are not.

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goetzjam wrote:

In terms of fault, that is purely on the indication of complaining about difficulty, when you can do something yourself to change it.

No. I can't do anything to change it. I've ran it so many times, that I became good at it a long time ago. But it's still a content I rather see changed. It doesn't give me ANY form of enjoyment. Any. How can I change the situation further? Start playing Pink Floyd while I run the lab, putting flowers in my hair and start roleplaying with the monsters in there?

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goetzjam wrote:

I think people in this thread need to be informed of the changes and implications of the 3.0 changes, not only to the lab, but the rest of the game, only then will the post be relevant.

That may be so. But the most points in here goes towards the gameplay elements of the lab, how they are designed and the amount of enjoyment you get from doing that exact content. They can change everything around the lab, but the lab content itself? Well, it gets a little bit shorter, which is nice.

A lot of players don't belong in the "Min/maxers" group, where it's widely accepted to to boring shit as long as it's a means to an end. A lot of players play videogames to have fun. And while HARD and STRUGGLES may be fun, the lab doesn't fit into any of those categories.

But I'll give you (and 3.0) a chance. If the environment around the lab in 3.0 makes the gameplay elements inside the lab "joyful", I'll come back to you :)

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

In terms of fault, that is purely on the indication of complaining about difficulty, when you can do something yourself to change it.

No. I can't do anything to change it. I've ran it so many times, that I became good at it a long time ago. But it's still a content I rather see changed. It doesn't give me ANY form of enjoyment. Any. How can I change the situation further? Start playing Pink Floyd while I run the lab, putting flowers in my hair and start roleplaying with the monsters in there?

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goetzjam wrote:

I think people in this thread need to be informed of the changes and implications of the 3.0 changes, not only to the lab, but the rest of the game, only then will the post be relevant.

That may be so. But the most points in here goes towards the gameplay elements of the lab, how they are designed and the amount of enjoyment you get from doing that exact content. They can change everything around the lab, but the lab content itself? Well, it gets a little bit shorter, which is nice.

A lot of players don't belong in the "Min/maxers" group, where it's widely accepted to to boring shit as long as it's a means to an end. A lot of players play videogames to have fun. And while HARD and STRUGGLES may be fun, the lab doesn't fit into any of those categories.

But I'll give you (and 3.0) a chance. If the environment around the lab in 30 makes the gameplay elements inside the lab "joyful", I'll come back to you :)

Again, I am not referring to the difficult of the lab, can you at least quote the rest of the context with it next time.


Everything that isn't endgame is a means to an end, that doesn't mean it should be disregarded as being important. The lab is important, because it gives you another set of things to learn and overcome, its a different piece of content and provides different challenges.


Will the changes in 3.0 change that traps do damage, no, will it change that you have to do it 4 times, no, but GGG already addressed these in a dev post. They are responding to this thread indirectly and you guys just ignore it as if they've done nothing for you.



If your looking for GGG making the lab optional (as in offering the points elsewhere) that is not going to happen, if all you are going to do is complain until that never happens you can join turtle in his massive quest (read shitpost) of a thread and see if GGG gives a damn about a list of players that still play the game or ones that "quit, but not really quit"



The 3.0 changes won't make the lab anymore enjoyable if you have a hate for the content itself. If you find it "It's not about difficulty. Lab isn't difficult and is easily cheesed. It's always annoying, repetitive, simple minded and terribly designed."

That isn't something GGG can fix, unless they basically throw out all the work they did. They don't do that and have never done that before, when GGG has given every indication that isn't going to happen, either adjust your expectations or stay disappointed.




I also think its funny that you say the lab isn't hard or provides any struggle, but if that were the case we wouldn't be seeing post about izarro being too difficult or post on reddit where people die to traps :)