SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

The point is they fixed it, and admitted they fucked up. We are still waiting for GGG to do that with the pay to win lab.

Pay to w--

...

(\__/)
(='.'=) - Ding!
(")_(")

...

Piece of advice: Don't hold your breath.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

difficulty was never the reason we find the content boring.

But are you saying that removing difficulty doesn't make it more boring... err, less unfun or whatever we're using for it now? The quality of your experience during a lab run is therefore the same regardless of how easy or hard it is?

We agree they can't change the lab easily so it suddenly becomes appealing to the vast majority, it isn't one problem, or two. I'm afraid the lab is a lot a lot like the trading situation, it was likely expected that something like PoElab will be created.

About exploration factor, I would personally like to see it and consider the lack of it a flaw. However, if there's one thing PoE doesn't normally have it's exploration, we do have positional play similar to what you'd use on traps but no exploration elements in any shape or form, we aren't rewarded for it and even if we were I expect very few would bother. Back when I made that lab redesign suggestion I said it shouldn't make it into the game because it would be more likely to make the situation worse than help.

"

raics wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

difficulty was never the reason we find the content boring.

But are you saying that removing difficulty doesn't make it more boring... err, less unfun or whatever we're using for it now? The quality of your experience during a lab run is therefore the same regardless of how easy or hard it is?

No. Take a second look and you'll see that that isn't what I said at all. (Of course you can fuck up any part of the game by over-nerfing or over-buffing its difficulty.)

I did say, however, what I feel the true reason is that the Labyrinth isn't fun, and it has nothing to do with difficulty. My point remains the same as it was in the previous post: This endemic discussion of difficulty is a red herring and/or strawman. (And some in this thread are even using it as an ad hominem! You know who you are, so please knock it off.)

"

We agree they can't change the lab easily so it suddenly becomes appealing to the vast majority, it isn't one problem, or two. I'm afraid the lab is a lot a lot like the trading situation, it was likely expected that something like PoElab will be created.

Actually, we don't agree on this. I do not think that randomizing the Labyrinth (using the existing randomization algorithm) and using existing assets to balance its rewards around that new state would be a particularly Herculean task, and it would make the Labyrinth more fun overall, for a very large chunk of the gaming population. (It would make it less fun for the min-max reddit meta followers, a significantly smaller chunk if the number of vocal supporters for the Labyrinth in the forums is any indication, as well as those players who cynically use others' hatred for the content in order to make a profit. I am not particularly sympathetic to this group.)

"

About exploration factor, I would personally like to see it and consider the lack of it a flaw. However, if there's one thing PoE doesn't normally have it's exploration, we do have positional play similar to what you'd use on traps but no exploration elements in any shape or form, we aren't rewarded for it and even if we were I expect very few would bother. Back when I made that lab redesign suggestion I said it shouldn't make it into the game because it would be more likely to make the situation worse than help.

I know of no other part of the game that so thoroughly punishes you for exploration or that so thoroughly rewards you for avoiding exploration. Do you?

It arguably cannot exist in the first place, unless you are using a maphack. The absence of randomization is a simulated maphack, and it is exactly why GGG is unable to balance rewards around people exploring the Labyrinth.

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

The point is they fixed it, and admitted they fucked up. We are still waiting for GGG to do that with the pay to win lab.

The Labyrinth is not and never has been pay2win, if you're talking about paying someone a few chaos orbs to run you through it. Pay2win refers to using real-money to obtain in-game benefits.

Arguments like this distract from the REAL problems the Labyrinth has.

When people are so bad they can't finish lab for year and 3 months already.

"

Spermadzika wrote:

When people are so bad they can't finish lab for year and 3 months already.

When people are so bad that they can't read :)

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

difficulty

Sure, we agree it isn't a major factor and you can't form a good argument around just that, but I think it's a fairly important compound factor.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Actually, we don't agree on this. I do not think that randomizing the Labyrinth (using the existing randomization algorithm) and using existing assets to balance its rewards around that new state would be a particularly Herculean task, and it would make the Labyrinth more fun overall, for a very large chunk of the gaming population. (It would make it less fun for the min-max reddit meta followers, a significantly smaller chunk if the number of vocal supporters for the Labyrinth in the forums is any indication, as well as those players who cynically use others' hatred for the content in order to make a profit. I am not particularly sympathetic to this group.)

You know what, I'd like to have as much faith in the playerbase as you do, but I hope you'll allow me to remain skeptical about the whole thing. I'd like to see them try it in some future 1 month league or beta, though.

"

Turtledove wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

...
But if you are very good at it and take a very small amount of time doing it, then you can hardly find it boring.
...

So that's your point you've been beating around the bush about for the last many dozens of pages! HAHAHA

It is an absurd not true assertion for everyone. Maybe for you but not for me. Obviously not for Phrazz or probably anyone one else around here.

I'll give you an A for effort but an F for presentation and an F overall for being flat out wrong.

You really, seriously, genuinely didn't understand it ???
I'm pretty positive that you don't fall in the "very good at it and take a very small amount of time doing it" anyway, so you surely do find it boring.

"

Regulator wrote:

He even farmed lab the last league i believe on good layout days. And he finds it boring amongst other things

Farming it and just running it once for the points are obiously different things already.

"

The_reporter wrote:

I'm 10X better at labs'/trials and PoE in general than Fruz

Of course you are :)
And definitely even better at baiting :)

"

Gibbousmoon wrote:

Players overlevel for the lab BECAUSE it is boring. They want to make sure they don't have to do it more than once, even if they make a careless mistake.

I don't think so, they overlevel the lab so that they won't rip to Izaro and need to do it again ( in the case of people not liking it, or being at least somewhat afraid ).
But it is true that it reduces the time you spend in it when you blow up Izaro quicker ( although most whinners here seem to say that they do like the Izaro fight ... quite contraditory regarding this ).

"

Phrazz wrote:

While "hard" and "challenging" often drives me, and can make content interesting an "fun", the lab fails to do so. Maybe it's because it fails to be challenging and hard, and instead just becomes "something to have to do" to make the most out of your character.

Why don't you run it at equal level then ?
Because unless maybe a very few couple of meta cheezy builds ( if you have leveling gear, and I'm not sure ), at equal level, Izaro is dangerous and requires some skills, starting fresh of course.
You can even buff it if you want more "challenge".
Or have you done it too many times ? Then what is the difference between the other act bosses ?
Or are you bored during the whole storyline pre 3.0.0 ?

"

Gibbousmoon wrote:

It does not make the Labyrinth more compelling for us, because--surprise, surprise--difficulty was never the reason we find the content boring.

That does make more sense, but for example it is not what Phrazz just said ( which Raics might have been reacting too, I don't quite remember ).

"

Gibbousmoon wrote:

Furthermore, I am not lying about my experience nor dishonestly misrepresenting it in order to create an argument in "bad faith." I am an honest person (sorry, Fruz).

I do actually believe you.
Maybe the notion of boredom is more subjective than I thought to be honest.
But just to know, 5~10 sec after entering the lab, you would say that you are "bored" already ?
I mean, you just came in, started hitting couple of monsters ( no trap in sight ) .... does that bore you ?

"

Gibbousmoon wrote:

2. Unfun =/= boring. (The most common antonym for "boring" is "exciting," not "fun.") I find all boring activities to be unfun, including the Labyrinth, but not all unfun activities to be boring. As a simple example, would you say getting punched in the face is boring? Because I'm pretty sure it's not fun.

Thank you for this one, and that is a good example, I should have thought of something like this.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

I know of no other part of the game that so thoroughly punishes you for exploration or that so thoroughly rewards you for avoiding exploration. Do you?

Well, not always.
In a way, exploring does not make you efficient (appart from maps, especially high ones, but you don't full clear them, you don't chase for those last couple of mobs if there are still some), and the economy being a huge competition within players ( to a certain extent ), exploration does put you at a certain disadvantage compared to efficient players.
But it's way less obvious than the lab,

This is not a SSF thing of course.
So overall, unless very few quest items ( thaumetic sulphite ), PoE does not really reward you for exploring the content, imho.
Lab even less I guess ( appart from extra treasure keys, or intricate locker maybe ).

But there is randomization in the lab, can you tell exactly how it is everyday, the first time you enter it, without checking the internet ?
It does put you at a disadvantage competition wise, but you cannot tell that it isn't random still.
But we've discussed this already, and I agree that having it more randomized, implying more of a labyrinthic feeling, would probably be better.
I do think that it would likely piss of even more players.

"

Gibbousmoon wrote:

Arguments like this distract from the REAL problems the Labyrinth has.

As well as most of the silly analogies ( @eating shit, those ones were so clever ) that have been going on in this thread.




Well .... that was a long post.

It's typically better to be a bit humble when trying to attribute reasons for how others feel.

tl;dr summary: Difficulty isn't relevant. I would still hate lab no matter how easy or difficult it is because of the gameplay inside of it.

I had 1980s Mario flashbacks when I first ran trials and lab because trap gauntlets required precision movement and timing. Given how I found Mario tedious and irritating, and had stopped playing games like that over 30 years ago, that was enough to make me want to either avoid trials and lab entirely or minimize the time I spent in them. I wouldn't care if the damage was cut to 75%, 50%, 10%, or 1% of what it is.

Another reason why lab ended up as an unpleasant surprise was because I disliked the old Solaris maze-map, like a lot of others. They made Solaris shorter, which seemed to be an admission by GGG that perhaps long mazes were something a huge number of players didn't particularly enjoy. Along came lab and the idea that GGG learned something from Solaris about how maze-maps are inherently unenjoyable disappeared.

Like many others, I've had multiple disconnects back when I would actually run lab, despite hating the experience (those days are over, and so is lab for me). Given that I hated running lab, you can probably guess how much I enjoyed getting disconnected.

PS: I had one character death in a trial and none in lab. I was rushing when I lost that one character; it was a silly death that had nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with being bored and wanting to be done with lab.

Summary: Difficulty isn't relevant. I hate lab because of the gameplay inside of it.

"

EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Summary: Difficulty isn't relevant. I would still hate lab because of the gameplay inside of it.

But if the traps dealt almost no damage and everything was piss easy, you would barely notice that gameplay, rushing to the end without paying attention.
Difficulty does have an impact on the gameplay, gameplay and difficulty are not unrelated words.

So difficulty is relevant to the overal feeling to a certain extent.
( hint : note the underlined word, I underlined it and I am putting even more emphasis on it because I do think that some people people would still miss it otherwise ).


"precision movement and timing" would be less of a thing if the trap dealt very little damage, as an example.

I felt real shitty after those analogies, Fruz. :(

I thought they were a boring and bland representation of what a thread should look like. Hopping like a frog from one bad analogy to the next while dodging insulting remarks to get to the mandatory point at the end of the pages. When they misquote you, you don't even get the points, you have to start all over again! Such bad design, something should be done about this!