SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Fruz wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Summary: Difficulty isn't relevant. I would still hate lab because of the gameplay inside of it.

But if the traps dealt almost no damage and everything was piss easy, you would barely notice that gameplay, rushing to the end without paying attention.
Difficulty does have an impact on the gameplay, gameplay and difficulty are not unrelated words.

So difficulty is relevant to the overal feeling to a certain extent.
( hint : note the underlined word, I underlined it and I am putting even more emphasis on it because I do think that some people people would still miss it otherwise ).


"precision movement and timing" would be less of a thing if the trap dealt very little damage, as an example.

You're still busy trying to tutor others concerning how they feel and why they feel as they do. It's not humble to do that.

I'd still hate lab no matter what the damage was from Izaro and traps. Full stop.

Actually, you can't know that for sure.
Since it does not exist.



I guess underlining and adding almost two lines wasn't even enough lol.

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Xavathos wrote:

I felt real shitty after those analogies, Fruz. :(

I thought they were a boring and bland representation of what a thread should look like. Hopping like a frog from one bad analogy to the next while dodging insulting remarks to get to the mandatory point at the end of the pages. When they misquote you, you don't even get the points, you have to start all over again! Such bad design, something should be done about this!

hahaha

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Fruz wrote:

Actually, you can't know that for sure.
Since it does not exist.

I guess underlining and adding almost two lines wasn't even there lol.

The experience of running lab would change as the difficulty slider was shifted up or down. But, that would fix nothing that makes me hate running lab. Ergo, I would still hate running lab.

Try a cooking experiment to see this a bit better. Let's recruit Mr. Smith as a taste tester. He hates onions, black pepper, and liver. Make 100 different dishes that lean heavily on these three ingredients. Ask Mr. Smith to eat all of them, with the intention of asking him how many dishes he liked.

Assuming Mr. Smith didn't leave the room long before the experiment ended, which he almost certainly would have done, Mr. Smith probably wouldn't have a very favorable response.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

I'd still hate lab no matter what the damage was from Izaro and traps. Full stop.

Fair enough. But that's just you, I listed a few examples from PoE where trivializing questionable game elements efficiently stifled complaints.

Well, there's admittedly another factor at work there besides the element objectively being less of a problem. Players are reluctant to complain about something truly trivial even if they don't like it much because it seems a bit lame.

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Fruz wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

I felt real shitty after those analogies, Fruz. :(

I thought they were a boring and bland representation of what a thread should look like. Hopping like a frog from one bad analogy to the next while dodging insulting remarks to get to the mandatory point at the end of the pages. When they misquote you, you don't even get the points, you have to start all over again! Such bad design, something should be done about this!

hahaha

They may have nerfed Ignite, but Burn still works like a charm. ;)

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Actually, you can't know that for sure.
Since it does not exist.

I guess underlining and adding almost two lines wasn't even there lol.

The experience of running lab would change as the difficulty slider was shifted up or down. But, that would fix nothing that makes me hate running lab. Ergo, I would still hate running lab.

Try a cooking experiment to see this a bit better. Let's recruit Mr. Smith as a taste tester. He hates onions, black pepper, and liver. Make 100 different dishes that lean heavily on these three ingredients. Ask Mr. Smith to eat all of them, with the intention of asking him how many dishes he liked.

Assuming Mr. Smith didn't leave the room long before the experiment ended, which he almost certainly would have done, Mr. Smith probably wouldn't have a very favorable response.

Actually, that analogy is very wrong in many ways :
- Some dishes can taste really different with some common ingredient, and not just a pinch of it.
- Trying to make somebody eats 100 dishes in a row to see if he will like at least one is incredibly stupid, for obvious reasons ( that I am not going to mention here ), and is not relevant with the topic here.

And :
"Actually, you can't know that for sure.
Since it does not exist."

Gameplay and difficulty are related notions.
The gameplay does somewhat change with the difficulty.

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raics wrote:

Well, there's admittedly another factor at work there besides the element objectively being less of a problem. Players are reluctant to complain about something truly trivial even if they don't like it much because it seems a bit lame.

You think that it's only about looking lame ?
I think that some ( actually I do think - most ) would just not bother ( assuming that it isn't very time consuming of course ).

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

I'd still hate lab no matter what the damage was from Izaro and traps. Full stop.

Fair enough. But that's just you, I listed a few examples from PoE where trivializing questionable game elements efficiently stifled complaints.

Well, there's admittedly another factor at work there besides the element objectively being less of a problem. Players are reluctant to complain about something truly trivial even if they don't like it much because it seems a bit lame.

Nobody who likes games expects to be on the edge of their seat with excitement every second they're gaming. That's not realistic and it would be exhausting if it was realistic. So, if discomfort falls to a certain level, then many are likely to think "the good outweighs the bad here" and let an issue drop.

Also, difficulty has many causes, not all of which are seen in the same light. For example, one shot character kills from off screen are widely disliked. Some boss fights are visual shitstorms that take place in a small space, which doesn't appeal to everybody.

You're also moving into the question "What kind of challenges do people like?", which is usually closely connected to the genre of the games you choose play. This is a big part of why moving across genres in a single game can be risky, doubly so if you haven't been clear with your players ahead of time about where a game's development is headed (that applies in this case).

Finally, the "you're a unique flower" argument seems out of place because there is a very large number of people saying they dislike or hate all or part of what makes me hate labyrinth.

Fruz. I've yet to see a dumber way of discussing a topic and expressing personal POV.

[Removed by Support]

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torturo wrote:

Fruz. I've yet to see a dumber way of discussing a topic and expressing personal POV.

[Removed by Support]

I guess I could have had a good example if I would have came here earlier maybe, idk :)

I just took some time and read through some of the pages in this thread, and I must say; "jeeze".

Almost the majority of the "counters" to the people disliking the lab, falls into the "I know better how YOU feel than you do yourself. If not, you are lying"-category. It makes we want to ask the following question:

"How's it looking up there, on your high horse?"

Especially one of the people in here, calls people liars as soon as he runs out of arguments. But he isn't the only one. It's kind of sad to read, and makes me understand why some are being provoked.

But I have a couple of questions for the defenders/likers/lovers/tolerators of the lab:

What is it about the lab that makes YOU spend 500 pages+ defending it? What is it about the lab that is so important to keep? Why would a challenging alternative to the lab be so freakin' bad for the game?