SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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raics wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If that is the case, then I think it is reasonable to conclude you haven't been paying attention, given the sheer number of negatively critical posts which are prefaced with some variation of "I have no problem with the Lab's difficulty" or "I can finish it no problem."

I see nothing unusual about that in particular, for each complaint there's a git good regardless of its validity.

Sorry, but you are simply wrong about this. There is a laundry list of complaints which have nothing to do with improving your skill. I don't think I need to rehash them.

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When I said a game element is 'hated by design' it doesn't need to be hard, it can also be awkward or tedious on purpose just to burn more of your time. Trading is a very good example of that, hating it keeps us from trading too much.

That is a very good point; you are saying that power-creep via AP and power-creep via gear must both be curtailed somewhat in order to keep the game challenging (i.e., fun). But just because the problem is "solved" does not mean the solution is good. I personally play SSF exclusively in order to avoid the mess which is trading, but the game is nonetheless balanced around the power you obtain by trading.

That's fine for me; I can still clear enough high-level content to be content (can do Atziri, for example, though not Uber-Atziri), but it is highly telling that trade frustration is perhaps the most common complaint by new posters on the forums, even more common than Labyrinth complaints.

If your argument is that "pissing off your userbase in order to discourage them from becoming too powerful too quickly" is an effective solution, you are not wrong. The Labyrinth situation and the trading situation are both evidence of that. If your argument is that this is a good solution, then I assert that you couldn't be more wrong, from either a business standpoint or a game design standpoint.

This category of solution, while effective, hurts the game.

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Phrazz wrote:

And again, you - just like the other guy I quoted, the minute someone asks for an ALTERNATIVE, you start comparing this unknown alternative (an alternative I haven't proposed yet) to D3 or Candycrush or whatever, thinking every alternative would be "watering down" the game. I don't want easier. I want an alternative. See the difference here? No? Ok.

I know you can't be bothered to actually provide something constructive, we are aware of this already.

Good job avoiding the other points completely.
An alternative would need to be :
- time
- money
- to be time consuming if not for turning PoE into a candy crush like
- to have the same kind of mechanics that cant be fully outgeared such as traps if not for turning PoE into a candy crush like

And the two last points obviously means : people would still complain. period.

You can't be bothered to bring anything ?
Well I don't see any reason to give you anything, after all I like the game, including the labyrinth, and I keep playing it.



And if you are complaining about something that took you less than 10 mins in a video game that you spend tens of hours playing ( so I mean per character here ), that means that this behaviour is similar to one thing mostly :
A kid's tantrum

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Phrazz wrote:

wouldn't you advocate for an alternative?

If it was something very time consuming, in a much much more significant way than the lab, then maybe.
But I would definitely not insist here, I would move on, or just deal with it, time is precious ( even though I am here, arguing, I know )

You don't even know what "educate" means, sigh.

If an alternative actually was challenging, you would still QQ, absolutely no doubt about it.
No need to waste GGG's money and time, no thank you.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Giving in to casual players who want everything handed to them on a silver platter [/b]

For Gods sake, I give up. It's impossible to debate something in here when people Can't/refuses to read. No one (not me, at least) talks about "giving/handing it". Point to where I said so, or stop using this as an argument, please.

I can't stop using it as an argument, because that's what a lot of people in here want. Free ascendancy points. They even say that it's okay if it's just an option for them, while letting us do the lab still if we like it so much.

I mean, that's just cheating, do you get that? That's skipping content that gives you power, that's what cheaters do in games. I never understood why people would want to cheat in games, especially single player or non-competitive games. It takes all the fun out of it and makes it entirely pointless. It's about the journey, not the end, and the journey takes you through the lab.

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Phrazz wrote:

- What is the lab offering, that is so important to keep?
- Would YOU run the lab for pure enjoyment, if there wasn't any rewards you couldn't get from elsewhere in the game?

1) challenge and a gateway that keeps realy bad builds away from the game. it also tells bad players that they are bad and their build requires an update/rethink. currently the game is so piss-easy that it is the only thing that will do a speed-bump job

if the game was challenging during the normal gameplay - then we can talk. but POE needs a speed bump and a 'rite of passage' mechanic. ggg cannot remove instant logout and stop the clear speed meta - it is too late for that. so they created the lab to tell the people that are CARRIED by their copy-pasted-immortal builds that they are in fact - in need of skilling up

it is a bandaid but it works. if you have two left hands and are drunk and have no clue - you can chain-farm shaped strands. but traps will kill you. izaro will kill you. and thats the point


2) yes, i would. in fact my biggest gripe with the lab is that i cannot buy offerings from vendor. i would gladly level up in uber lab instead of Dried Lake. the density and xp/hour in merc lab is good enough to level easily till ~70-72 and then id like to move into uber lab. the xp/hour when you are 75-80 is pretty damn good even if you clear just whatever is on the path.

lab - despite some say - is PACKED TIGHT with mobs.

sadly: on your first character you do not have trials yet, on the second - you already have shaped Beaches and Mesas and Strands. and even tho i do all trials except burning (laaaaag) i still run out of offerings on a 'good lab day' (today is a pretty sick Uber lab day btw. one of the easiest 5keys+lab unique days in memory)

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Sorry, but you are simply wrong about this. There is a laundry list of complaints which have nothing to do with improving your skill. I don't think I need to rehash them.

Of course, the complaint needs to have at least something to do with skill or knowledge, obviously enough, you won't see 'git good' on a 'give us back the globe girls' thread.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If your argument is that this is a good solution, then I assert that you couldn't be more wrong, from either a business standpoint or a game design standpoint.

Not really asserting anything, I was just exploring the possibility. Making things cumbersome on purpose is a well established way of artificially prolonging playtime, theoretically it isn't a good thing because a game should offer you plenty to do. However, sometimes it isn't necessarily bad either or is at least better than some of the alternatives.

For instance, in open world games you often need to bounce back and forth between locations as new quests open up. That's obviously a way to extend the playtime but it's also realistic, making everything line up too conveniently would break immersion and turn the game linear.

So now we are up to the thesis that creating conceptually flawed, poorly implemented, tedious, boring, annoying, and even frustrating content and events, is supposed to be good for the game because it will make players occupied and prolong the game life?

That's desperate.

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torturo wrote:

So now we are up to the thesis that creating conceptually flawed, poorly implemented, tedious, boring, annoying, and even frustrating content and events, is supposed to be good for the game because it will make players occupied and prolong the game life?

As I said, don't read too much into it, PoE does have features which are intentionally tedious and uses them as speed bumps most often, that's understandable enough given the league driven nature of the game. If you've been following the whole train of thought you'd see I listed a different reason and I got no idea if that was indeed the case with lab, it's just a possibility.