SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

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e1337donkey wrote:

It would entirely be possible to design it that way, rares are designed to give different tiers of values and random values inside its tier. Make it un blessed orb-able. Getting nothing for several leagues is a kick in the balls. If you got 1%, then you can do the lab again and reroll to attempt a higher value.

Thats what I am saying is that its counter intuitive to the games design to not allow for implicit to be able to be blessed.

I doubt GGG ever makes getting enchantments easier and I don't really like the idea of being able to select the specific skill enchant you want, but it rolls.

Honestly it could easily join 1 of the 100s of mechanics not fully explained by GGG that you have to research to find out about. I don't think the game has any issue with that. I mean enchants are in this treasury room and has its own shrine.. it wouldn't be unheard for this type of implicit to be different.

Like I said, even if its not what I said... it just bugs me that this is the only system in the entire game that functions like this. It's similar to going for a 6 link.. its a gamble. Yet I can farm fusings and go for Vorici if I truly want it. Any other item I want... I'm unlucky and dont find it, no biggie I can grind it out and trade for it. Can't kill shaper or uber atziri.. maybe my build sucks the big one...still, I can trade for items. Certain builds shouldn't have to wait until the next meta shift to be able to participate in this.

I can agree that I highly doubt GGG will do anything with this system. I'm surprised they are even shortening it in 3.0 for the 1st lab or w/e it will be called. It just joins the rest of the game of having these half hearted concepts but not being fully fleshed out.

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e1337donkey wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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e1337donkey wrote:

It would entirely be possible to design it that way, rares are designed to give different tiers of values and random values inside its tier. Make it un blessed orb-able. Getting nothing for several leagues is a kick in the balls. If you got 1%, then you can do the lab again and reroll to attempt a higher value.

Thats what I am saying is that its counter intuitive to the games design to not allow for implicit to be able to be blessed.

I doubt GGG ever makes getting enchantments easier and I don't really like the idea of being able to select the specific skill enchant you want, but it rolls.

Honestly it could easily join 1 of the 100s of mechanics not fully explained by GGG that you have to research to find out about. I don't think the game has any issue with that. I mean enchants are in this treasury room and has its own shrine.. it wouldn't be unheard for this type of implicit to be different.

Like I said, even if its not what I said... it just bugs me that this is the only system in the entire game that functions like this. It's similar to going for a 6 link.. its a gamble. Yet I can farm fusings and go for Vorici if I truly want it. Any other item I want... I'm unlucky and dont find it, no biggie I can grind it out and trade for it. Can't kill shaper or uber atziri.. maybe my build sucks the big one...still, I can trade for items. Certain builds shouldn't have to wait until the next meta shift to be able to participate in this.

I can agree that I highly doubt GGG will do anything with this system. I'm surprised they are even shortening it in 3.0 for the 1st lab or w/e it will be called. It just joins the rest of the game of having these half hearted concepts but not being fully fleshed out.

I think the enchant system is for the most part fully fleshed out, most of whats missing is enchants that benefit skills that aren't gems, like whispering ice builds and other unique\weapon specific skills. (or stuff like the boots build)

One could argue that you can get reduced mana cost reservation or one of the buffs you use, like bloodrage, but I think the enchants were mainly designed to be a way to spice up certain skills and for the most part I've seen people build successful characters without the enchant for the skill they are using.

The more important ones for a build are ones that change a mechanic or move a threshold. Like the reduced duration on earthquake or storm call, but even without the enchant people will play the builds.

As i've mentioned elsewhere, GGG hasn't really balanced around AC all that much. The power spike didn't come with a large balance change, there have been mid tier life and damage buffs on some maps, rebalance so to speak of bosses, but not really accounting for enchants, ac classes, ect much if at all.

I simply view the lab as fine as is, its the rest of the game that hasn't gotten the balance required. If after the main content people do, you know the 99% I mention often is more balanced, revisiting the lab and ensuring its a piece of content for people to do and polished up is fine.

For the most part enchants took the power away from the quality gem balance that was done in 2.0, where they effectively nerfed quality gem bonuses in half. Still, when you consider the massive power spike that AC classes give, enchants are usually a fraction compared to that. Its also worth keeping in mind that GGG has seen fit to not limit peoples access to items, so very few things require effort and luck on the players part anymore.

To elaborate, because of divination cards various 6 links are much cheaper, because of divination cards various unique items are easier to get. Because of diviners boxes, divination cards are easier to get. But it doesn't stop there, GGG buffed unique item drops significantly, with minor adjustment going back the way to make them more rare. GGG encourages the clearspeed meta with shaped strands being so rewarding. So maps don't cost as much to sustain\run\ect. Its a compounding effect really and what we are left with is a game where very few things are stuff players can really even work towards and part of the reason why I think the lab is one of the better pieces of content is because its one of the only things you can't 100% get your ass carried by, you must do something to earn it yourself, even if it is quicksilvering over a set of traps.

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The_Reporter wrote:

The labyrinth/trials need to be brought up to the challenge of the rest of the game. Currently, the solution is too low brow, simplistic AND boring.

Unique random instancing would be a start to fixing the mess.

maybe 99% of the rest of the game is less challenging than the lab .....

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Fruz wrote:

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The_Reporter wrote:

The labyrinth/trials need to be brought up to the challenge of the rest of the game. Currently, the solution is too low brow, simplistic AND boring.

Unique random instancing would be a start to fixing the mess.

maybe 99% of the rest of the game is less challenging than the lab .....

Izaro is the main challenge in the lab. Of course, gathering the entrance requirements for the endgame lab is also a challenge. edit: I consider using 820 to be a kind of a cheat and would never use that.

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The_Reporter wrote:

Bottom line is that the whole labyrinth bit is a sham. Loathsome, but not difficult.

More than maybe 90% ( at least ) of the rest of the game.
If it was not difficult at all, people would just rush through it and nobody would QQ about it.

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goetzjam wrote:

I think the enchant system is for the most part fully fleshed out, most of whats missing is enchants that benefit skills that aren't gems, like whispering ice builds and other unique\weapon specific skills. (or stuff like the boots build)

One could argue that you can get reduced mana cost reservation or one of the buffs you use, like bloodrage, but I think the enchants were mainly designed to be a way to spice up certain skills and for the most part I've seen people build successful characters without the enchant for the skill they are using.

The more important ones for a build are ones that change a mechanic or move a threshold. Like the reduced duration on earthquake or storm call, but even without the enchant people will play the builds.

I can't agree on the fully fleshing out, some skill gem enchants have some solid game changing enchants while other genms just give generic damage boost. There needs to be more competition in why you would ever take A enchant over B enchant. And if a scenario exists where players can't get an enchant in the same ways that others can get there enchant, something is wrong.

When you design your game around trading, you have to account for this. Imagine this in reverse, imagine people are only enchanting royal burgeonets next league because armour gets this huge buff. Should energy shield characters suffer for this? You can't exactly just tell them to get it themselves because its just not a feasible thing to do every league.

Yeah of course, I don't need the enchant to play the game but why wouldn't you want to work towards every possible way to increase the power level of your character. Whether its needed or not, one of the biggest draws of this game is the diversity in the ways you can build characters. Enchanting could have been more a part of this process.

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e1337donkey wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I think the enchant system is for the most part fully fleshed out, most of whats missing is enchants that benefit skills that aren't gems, like whispering ice builds and other unique\weapon specific skills. (or stuff like the boots build)

One could argue that you can get reduced mana cost reservation or one of the buffs you use, like bloodrage, but I think the enchants were mainly designed to be a way to spice up certain skills and for the most part I've seen people build successful characters without the enchant for the skill they are using.

The more important ones for a build are ones that change a mechanic or move a threshold. Like the reduced duration on earthquake or storm call, but even without the enchant people will play the builds.

I can't agree on the fully fleshing out, some skill gem enchants have some solid game changing enchants while other genms just give generic damage boost. There needs to be more competition in why you would ever take A enchant over B enchant. And if a scenario exists where players can't get an enchant in the same ways that others can get there enchant, something is wrong.

When you design your game around trading, you have to account for this. Imagine this in reverse, imagine people are only enchanting royal burgeonets next league because armour gets this huge buff. Should energy shield characters suffer for this? You can't exactly just tell them to get it themselves because its just not a feasible thing to do every league.

Yeah of course, I don't need the enchant to play the game but why wouldn't you want to work towards every possible way to increase the power level of your character. Whether its needed or not, one of the biggest draws of this game is the diversity in the ways you can build characters. Enchanting could have been more a part of this process.

Doesn't every skill gem offer a generic damage increase and basically a mechanical change?

Everyone can get the enchant they are looking for, sure there might be rng and you might spend 1k runs to get it, but it also might take 1 run, thats the RNG aspect of it.

Is it worst because of the meta right now, absolutely, but that doesn't mean the lab or enchants need changed, that means the game outside of the lab needs changed. It doesn't have to be a feasible thing to do in a game based around trading, following that logic because ssf players can't trade they should be treated like special snowflakes and be able to get things easier, which that simply isn't the deal that GGG is going with (nor should they ever)

In terms of min maxing, the leagues are 3 months long, there is no reason why you cant slowly work towards some of these endgame irreplaceable rewards and enchantments and why it has to be something you should be guaranteed after only a single run. It simply is illogical. Enchanting is a bonus, not a requirement, you are seeing it as a requirement, which is the issue. Just like people in the past saw low life as a requirement and complained over and over until shavs drop rate has been buffed to extreme levels. Low life is not a requirement, its luxury, people need to understand that part of arpg games are working towards a goal, even if it takes months or years. Instead people think that everything should essentially be free flowing and that removes one of the most important aspects of an ARPG's replay-ability, which is the grind.

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goetzjam wrote:

Is it worst because of the meta right now, absolutely, but that doesn't mean the lab or enchants need changed, that means the game outside of the lab needs changed. It doesn't have to be a feasible thing to do in a game based around trading, following that logic because ssf players can't trade they should be treated like special snowflakes and be able to get things easier, which that simply isn't the deal that GGG is going with (nor should they ever)

In terms of min maxing, the leagues are 3 months long, there is no reason why you cant slowly work towards some of these endgame irreplaceable rewards and enchantments and why it has to be something you should be guaranteed after only a single run.

You can't change how humans function. If every league has a meta then someone will get screwed out of this system. If they gut ES in 3.0 so at best you can get 5k ES then life will rein supreme and no body is going to enchant ES related items. It's how it is. Because of this one system, people get screwed out of this.

I offered a method in which you obtain your enchantmnet close to your glove and boot enchant. But I also said that it doesn't have to be MY way. And I also said, it doesn't have to be for free. Just because this is an ARPG doesn't mean that every system needs to revolve around this absolute grind. This is why SSF doesn't work out that well.

Become better then this, why do you think so many people have varying levels of excitement from this game. Because every system is random. From currency drops, rares/uniques, crafting, masters, jeweler/fusing, maps, etc This game is filled with low lows and high highs. For every 1 person that finds that sweet skyforth, you have 1 player who finds a mound of garbage.

It's 2017 and we can't find better ways to design systems other then ehhh its random, you can still farm it. I'm not buying it.