SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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raics wrote:

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lijoe408 wrote:

This is an ARPG where you should be able to farm/gear up to overcome certain obstacles.

Unrelated to the lab, I find this kinda funny. By definition, people play hardcore because it's more exciting and then they do everything in their power to never face any kind of risk if they don't really have to.

Hardcore players will often tell you that they can't shake the feeling that devs are lately moving away from hardcore, they made some questionable decisions you can really feel in HC server population. Some say PoE became more like other online games, and other online games don't often have a hardcore mode, some took the console release as a definite prof of it.

Anyhoo, the way I see it, the hardcore argument will be unlikely to sway anyone in the office.

If it doesn't sway a hardcore player that has played in many leagues, it for sure won't sway Chris's ideals. If anything we need more content that is clearly designed to be done in a hardcore fashion, not less.


Its not punishing unless you act like a retard and panic, based on his level of characters, there is no way he has even done the uber lab yet.

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goetzjam wrote:

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raics wrote:

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lijoe408 wrote:

This is an ARPG where you should be able to farm/gear up to overcome certain obstacles.

Unrelated to the lab, I find this kinda funny. By definition, people play hardcore because it's more exciting and then they do everything in their power to never face any kind of risk if they don't really have to.

Hardcore players will often tell you that they can't shake the feeling that devs are lately moving away from hardcore, they made some questionable decisions you can really feel in HC server population. Some say PoE became more like other online games, and other online games don't often have a hardcore mode, some took the console release as a definite prof of it.

Anyhoo, the way I see it, the hardcore argument will be unlikely to sway anyone in the office.

If it doesn't sway a hardcore player that has played in many leagues, it for sure won't sway Chris's ideals. If anything we need more content that is clearly designed to be done in a hardcore fashion, not less.


Its not punishing unless you act like a retard and panic, based on his level of characters, there is no way he has even done the uber lab yet.

I think you are missing that poster's point, which is that the game is increasingly balanced for a softcore experience. That is to say, unavoidable deaths, deaths from which you cannot learn, and/or deaths which are avoidable but only after having died to them enough times to learn--an iterative gameplay experience unsuited to a hardcore mode--are more common than they ever were before. I definitely agree with this assertion.

So to say that the Lab is indicative of GGG's continuing distance from balancing for HC is not a far stretch, but I think it's circumstantial. It's not that GGG is saying "fuck you" to HC players; they just don't care about balancing for HC anymore. (They used to.) I suspect that the sub-team in charge of creating the Labyrinth didn't even have hardcore gameplay on their radar while designing the thing, which is an epic oversight (and evidence perhaps of insufficient supervision), but again--the damage is done.

The Labyrinth can still be made much more fun for softcore than it is now, I think, but I cannot imagine fixing it to be less offensive for HC League players without gutting it completely. Perhaps someone with a better imagination than mine can.

Good hardcore play is difficult but fair. That will never change. PoE is no longer a good game for fans of hardcore, though I think that statement would be true even without the Lab's existence. It sucks, but there it is.

And for that reason alone, I can only agree with raic's assertion that any arguments referencing balance for hardcore will not likely influence anyone at GGG with regards to the Labyrinth.

informative post. thank you

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gibbousmoon wrote:

So to say that the Lab is indicative of GGG's continuing distance from balancing for HC is not a far stretch, but I think it's circumstantial. It's not that GGG is saying "fuck you" to HC players; they just don't care about balancing for HC anymore. (They used to.) I suspect that the sub-team in charge of creating the Labyrinth didn't even have hardcore gameplay on their radar while designing the thing, which is an epic oversight (and evidence perhaps of insufficient supervision), but again--the damage is done.

Very, very wrong.

Plenty of people are farming the lab in HC without dying, I did farm uber quite a bunch of times without dying either (30+ I think ).
If anything, the lab is more HC than the average game content.

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lijoe408 wrote:

Lab is too punishing for Hardcore. I don't see it as a problem for Softcore, but for hardcore it's unbearable. The feeling is crushing when you spend 60hrs on a character and then have to risk losing it in a few seconds some frogger type challenge. I lost 2 chars to the lab and it was very demoralizing and made me quit the game.

And have you tried to practise at least a bit in standard with your first ripped character ?
Because you definitely should have, if you are not good at it and want to keep rerolling in HC.

How did the fist HC players that killed ATwiri do ? What about shaper ? You think that they didn't take the time to practise in SC first ?
Well if you think so : you are wrong.
And the lab is more forgiving than those encounters, clearly.

If anything, one of the reason why I ( and probably many others ) play HC ( not all the time though ) is the thrill, and that is something that labyrinth can give.
The labyrinth just does fit better HC than SC.

Many SC players seem to be complaining ( in this thread ) that the labyrinth is "too HC to them".

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Fruz wrote:

Plenty of people are farming the lab in HC without dying

So, you are part of the silent majority of HC-uber Lab farmers, ehh?

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Fruz wrote:

I did farm uber quite a bunch of times without drying either (30+ I think ).

Well, you know, what a freudian slip is ? Btw: I get dryed out doing uber lab even one time ...and I died there. Twice. It was the last thing I have done in poe, a month ago.

Oh and for your "hardcoreness" just some words: Before I died to these trap streets - which have nothing to do with the original playstyle presented by ggg - I killed uber argus with no trouble. So one of the main complaint is about this different playstyle.

And by the way: there is already a hardcore option in this game. If people want to play "hardcore", they can. Maybe ggg should first think about stuff like: "one shot mechanics", "Alt+F4 logging", "build diversity", "melee vs ranged // life vs es" and second about forcing people to have his "kewl" "hardcore" Lab experience. I started playing hardcore in the beta and quit playing hardcore because of that.

_________________________

"You dont like your vegetables ? But, but, they are so healthy, kewl and they were so costly! So, now eat this anyway !" - - "What the hell are you thinking, you arrogant b*tches??" - Fuck off!!!"

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Fruz wrote:

Very, very wrong.

Plenty of people are farming the lab in HC without dying, I did farm uber quite a bunch of times without drying either (30+ I think ).
If anything, the lab is more HC than the average game content.

That's exactly it, you nudge people to softcore and then give them a bit of watered down hardcore so they don't feel as bad.

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LanPirot wrote:

and I died there. Twice. It was the last thing I have done in poe, a month ago.

I have to say, your life is very interesting.

PoE being hardcore is not just about the HC league, as obvious as it is, emotional haters seem to "conveniently" miss that.

And then the rant about the log-out design, with has nothing to do with here, but is as unrational and and pointless as the rest.

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raics wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Very, very wrong.

Plenty of people are farming the lab in HC without dying, I did farm uber quite a bunch of times without drying either (30+ I think ).
If anything, the lab is more HC than the average game content.

That's exactly it, you nudge people to softcore and then give them a bit of watered down hardcore so they don't feel as bad.

Yeah, that works for most, and then people with the wrong expectations and that need to have their hands holded ( there are other groups of course, with a bit more legitimate concerns ) don't like it.
Too bad.

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Fruz wrote:

Yeah, that works for most, and then people with the wrong expectations and that need to have their hands holded ( there are other groups of course, with a bit more legitimate concerns ) don't like it.
Too bad.

Can't please everyone, after all. Some are just a bit more... expendable than others, and hc players, sadly enough, fit there. They're more often high profile players, those demand more and complain more, I'm guessing the numbers say they don't also pay more, or at least not enough to cover for the extra trouble of pleasing them.

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Fruz wrote:

And then the rant about the log-out design, with has nothing to do with here, but is as unrational and and pointless as the rest.

Well, ofc its unrational and pointless, because it doesnt support your "objective view" (....of the "plenty people farming hc uber lab". Lol.)

I tried to adress your evidence of the needed lab for the "hardcore" factor.

The implentation of a "very different playstyle" (words from ggg) has nothing to do with "hardcore". You are just glad about the lab, because you like both playstyles and are privileged in this way. But it has nothing to do with your "hardcoreness". (Sorry about that.) If you just swap the implemented different playstyle "frogger" with the playstyle "First Person Shooter" or even stuff like "speed chess", you will notice the difference and maybe wouldnt like the implentation of a different playstyle anymore. (And maybe I would like the lab, because I prefer both instead of the frogger shit).

But I hear you. Poe is (or more precise: should be from your view) an "overall" hardcore game. But what does it mean ? Softcore and hardcore share already the same ruleset.If you want experience "tha real" hardcore, you can have if it already. So why force the player trough an exprience that they dont want ? Because you know it better what they like ? Really ? (Behavoir like that its called arrogance.)

It feels much more that ggg has looked at their constantt down going numbers of hardcore players (esp. compared to softcore players). Whats a bit problematic with their "we are so hardcore" attitude. But instead fixing things (like "alt-f4 logging" , "one shot mechanics") which has driven players away from playing hardcore or avoid it from the start, they decided to "nudge" players into the hardcore-expierence. Thats the connection from "lab", "hardcore" and "arrogance".

Oh, and by the way: the description of "nudge" is a good one (thanks to raics). But its not a description of a good / "ethical correct" behavoir (just using words from gggs selfimage). Just search "nudging" in the context of critical actual social sciences for that.

But lets stop here. GGG has made clear that they dont give a shit about the feedback from the lab haters. So its fine. I just wanted a bit interrupt your crying about those people that "wanted their hands holded without legitimate resons" and disturbing your privileged game experience.

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LanPirot wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Plenty of people are farming the lab in HC without dying

So, you are part of the silent majority of HC-uber Lab farmers, ehh?

Naaaahhh, all 10 people defending lab and how its awesome (though always conviniently neglecting to say that its for the lootz only) in this thread are scrubcore players to the very bottom of their heart. Not that it changes anything but it lets you see why they do so fanatically defend it. And taking those facts into account i cant help but wonder, how adding alternatives or reallocating ascendancies would make them and their fun farming sessions less enjoyable/fun or rewarding. You see they spit shit about this and that but deep down they oppose the cause out of pure spite, obviously they enjoy when others dont have fun with something they do.....

And then you have more objective softcore (and hardcore) players understanding that alternatives aint gonna hurt nobody, they will still after all do their favourite lab content, not different from what they do at the moment.

"but but, we dont want water downed content, GGG cant please anybody" proud white knights will rush to reply, still not understanding that pleasing another group while in the process you dont affect the other's side gameplay will keep both groups pleased, the first cause nothing changes for them and the second cause now they feel happy that they are not forced to do something they are not here for in the first place, playing an ARPG that is. And water downed content is content with lower quality, content that the changes made to it would change the content itself, something that definately doesnt apply here since both the quality of the content and its actual purpose (that is farming for loot and/or having fun, if you can have fun with 90' arcade games in 2017) would remain
un-fucking-touched.

GGG obviously likes to stack rewards in this specific content, and on top of that on their GRAND SOLUTION to the ARPG genre they excluded labyrinth, continuing to force people to re-run it 4x plus doing the trials again and again. In a way they say, we fixed the ARPG problem but jokes on you suckers cause lab aint an ARPG so this solution doesnt apply to it.