SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I disagree the game was better before them. Remove them and re-balance the game at high levels

They aren't ever going to remove content like this from the game for one thing. For another they are likely never going to remove or reduce the power of AC classes either.

I'm torn because no other ARPG puts such an emphasis on giving power from a "challenge" rather then enabling gear to be the main source of power, or at least shine better.


The best example I can compare AC classes to is something like the devotion system in GD.

Its stupid, lets gate our real game with a challenge so noobs can't play the real game.

It would be like wow limiting casual players to level 60 unless they do mythic +7's and clear heroic raids.

The problem is its not gating the real game just making it harder for some builds and bad players while just making it easier for the players who don't need it to be easier. Its just gating progression with a illogical unfun stupid mini game that has nothing to do with the real game.

It would be like having a football game and at halftime making each teams cheerleaders mud wrestle to see who gets to play their quarterback in the 4th quarter.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

Nobody forces you to click on the thread the way WE are forced to go through labyrinth, reading/posting in this thread is COMPLETELY optional and your own choice so why the fuck are you here?

You'd like that wouldn't you, just one big laby hating circlejerk.

So long as you're campaigning against the thing I love, I'll be right here. So you just keep on throwing your derogatory remarks around. :)

I love cats. By your logic every home should be required to have one.

Wait, is someone campaigning against having cats? D:
Your analogy doesn't really fit... But yeah we should require every house to have, at the bare minimum, 2 cats.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

It would be like having a football game and at halftime making each teams cheerleaders mud wrestle to see who gets to play their quarterback in the 4th quarter.

Why isn't this a thing? I like where this is going, please continue.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

Its stupid, lets gate our real game with a challenge so noobs can't play the real game.

Yeah, I have a tendency to help new players and 9 times out of 10 they say "wow, this is really cool" or something similar when they hit the laby. They fail the first few attempts until they learn the laby mechanics, then they have no issues getting thru it.

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Shovelcut wrote:

Yeah, I have a tendency to help new players and 9 times out of 10 they say "wow, this is really cool" or something similar when they hit the laby. They fail the first few attempts until they learn the laby mechanics, then they have no issues getting thru it.

I've had similar experience with the point in question, once even got curious enough to run around towns in merciless and ask random people what do they think of lab overall. In that light, I'm not going to offhandedly dismiss that claim Chris made about silent majority, it might not seem that way to us forum or reddit regulars, but I expect he was closer to the mark than most think.

However, I'll stick to my opinion that the whole thing probably wasn't necessary. Sure, they made very good content, but I believe they could have just as easily made something that would fit the rest of the game better. In a nutshell, they probably drove off a number of people that like ARPGs and hate puzzles but I don't think they drew in a single player that dislikes ARPGs and likes puzzles, simply because labyrinth isn't good enough by itself to reel a puzzle game fan in.

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raics wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

Yeah, I have a tendency to help new players and 9 times out of 10 they say "wow, this is really cool" or something similar when they hit the laby. They fail the first few attempts until they learn the laby mechanics, then they have no issues getting thru it.

I've had similar experience with the point in question, once even got curious enough to run around towns in merciless and ask random people what do they think of lab overall. In that light, I'm not going to offhandedly dismiss that claim Chris made about silent majority, it might not seem that way to us forum or reddit regulars, but I expect he was closer to the mark than most think.

However, I'll stick to my opinion that the whole thing probably wasn't necessary. Sure, they made very good content, but I believe they could have just as easily made something that would fit the rest of the game better. In a nutshell, they probably drove off a number of people that like ARPGs and hate puzzles but I don't think they drew in a single player that dislikes ARPGs and likes puzzles, simply because labyrinth isn't good enough by itself to reel a puzzle game fan in.

Just equip a bow, blink arrow, bypass everything Lab has to offer trap-wise. Anyone in any build can do this.

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Xavathos wrote:

Just equip a bow, blink arrow, bypass everything Lab has to offer trap-wise. Anyone in any build can do this.

That's not even really required, you can get thru it with no movement skill easily. All it takes is learning how to control your character and not getting hit. Or just simple flask management...

EZPZ!

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raics wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

Yeah, I have a tendency to help new players and 9 times out of 10 they say "wow, this is really cool" or something similar when they hit the laby. They fail the first few attempts until they learn the laby mechanics, then they have no issues getting thru it.

I've had similar experience with the point in question, once even got curious enough to run around towns in merciless and ask random people what do they think of lab overall. In that light, I'm not going to offhandedly dismiss that claim Chris made about silent majority, it might not seem that way to us forum or reddit regulars, but I expect he was closer to the mark than most think.

However, I'll stick to my opinion that the whole thing probably wasn't necessary. Sure, they made very good content, but I believe they could have just as easily made something that would fit the rest of the game better. In a nutshell, they probably drove off a number of people that like ARPGs and hate puzzles but I don't think they drew in a single player that dislikes ARPGs and likes puzzles, simply because labyrinth isn't good enough by itself to reel a puzzle game fan in.

The vocal minority thing might not have been too far off from the reality but nevertheless it was a really controversial even borderline inane statement. At the time it was made, moderators still deleting reddit threads about the lab, the forum's first 4 or 5 feedback pages were 95% full of lab threads and the GD had at least 2 pages with many lab threads. Even inside the game the situation was explosive, Global 1 and 820, seriously i had never seen so much burning passion about hating something. And no nothing of the above is an overstatement, the anti-lab outbreak was the biggest internal/community problem GGG has faced since the beggining and it is unlikely we are gonna see anything similar in the future (unless they put like turn based strategy or car racing elements), even the xbox news blew off in a couple of days.

But lets go back again to the actual vocal minority thing. At the time GGG was rocking 30k people on steam and around double that on the standalone client so a total 90-100k of players. Even if the people complaining were the 5% (which i strongly believe were not, my personal opinion is like 15-20% at the time) thats still a portion of player that NO sane/logical company would like to lose or infuriate even further. But still even the 5% at the time was a quarter million dollars on the 50$ supporter pack.

Then we got the daily lab ladders which was the only way to count how many actually were running lab besides that 1 time to get their points. If the above assumption of 100k players at the time was correct, we had stats like 4% or 9% percent in the HC and SC leagues respectively without the uber. It was like 2 to 5k players running for enchants or something in all leagues combined. So why those players were more important than the 2k complaining about the lab? Or the other 2k that left the game? To have a better understanding of the numbers, just know that when the pvp seasons were running the percentange of pvp players compared to the total at the time was 17-18%.

Even recently on the record breaking Breach, on the last days of the first month (most intense period for a league) 7k-10k people running the lab between all four leagues divided in all for difficulties (normal, cruel, merciless, endgame) says alot about how much fun and loved the lab is. If we go even further and take out every 30+ minute run which is clearly not a farming run and an obvious point getting only run in all difficulties, the number goes down by 3k to an average of 4-5k players running it for fun and rewards. But lets say 10k players like the lab, because the ladders lie (which they do not), thats still a measly 10% of the playerbase if the 100k players assumption is correct-ish. And remember that since Breach broke records in player retention and numbers, we are possibly speaking for 120k players on both clients.

So what GGG made content mandatory for all players but specific to those who like arcade games and puzzles inside an ARPG? Today after a year and some months i still struggle to see how that move/decision was still the right one and so much defended/protected by GGG that they wouldnt release a single dev manifesto including actual stats, their stats that at least would confirm their stance.

But still i have to give GGG credit for many things, including : very nice art design, boss design, music themes, overal content design and implementation but most importantly their decision not to make lab prerequisite to progress to the next difficulty the latter being the sole reason why the playerbase wasnt cut in half (if not more) by the time of the implementation.

And after all those, we have Chirs known for his PR shenanigans, saying -
somewhat recently if i might add - that the old/veteran vocal part of the community is very important to the company and they wouldnt like to upset them but their action always seem to contradict those kind of statements. Then you have these :

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Dan_GGG wrote:

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Erasculio wrote:

This is more a guideline for what other designers should avoid than a showcase of a successful part of the game.

This talk is definitely intended to present to other developers what we found worked and didn't while making the labyrinth, and what we learned in the process.

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Dan_GGG wrote:

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nuveau wrote:

I'm sure GGG had to know they were creating their very own lab troll thread in posting this.

I figured people would find it interesting regardless. Hopefully the content of the talk indicates that we are paying attention to feedback.

where GGG subtly and lighthearted after so much time recognize the content for what it is, an overal failure.

And make no mistake, i like lab, i want it in the game cause i like diversity (for every one of me there are 10 that dont care about it at all and 1 that likes it to death), i believe (and i have told this many times) it was a bold and out of the box idea and decision by GGG and kudos to them for trying new things. But it comes down to what you said Raics :

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Raics wrote:

they could have just as easily made something that would fit the rest of the game better

that wouldnt cause so much controversy, wouldnt divide the community in half, wouldnt cause so many threads and statements full of hate, and certainly wouldnt drive players away by the hundreds (if not thousands). Something that would be true to the game's roots and trully OPTIONAL.

Good thing is GGG recovered (though i must say their ostrich strategy couldnt be more despised), they learned their lesson and managed to come with record numbers in Breach. Now their playerbase includes even less old/veteran ARPG players who hated the content, and more newcomers who accept lab as part of the main game, something that is there since the beggining for them, people who will never understand whats the fuss about or dont care enough about the matter.

If im still fond of the game in 2-3 years when they actually decide to reallocate the ascendancy points then good ill start getting ascendancy classes on a regular base, until then ill continue without them, unless the mtx rewards are too cool to pass, the idea and the actual doing of something so alienating and wrong in a fundamental way compared to what i came here for in the first place will never sit right with me.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

And clearly others hatred of the Lab prevents you from enjoying it and thus every one should be forced to do it.

Do you have many more silly and irrelevant assertions like this one ?

->

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I love cats. By your logic every home should be required to have one.

Of course you do.
My previous question was a bit rethorical, but I just wanted to point that out still.

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Zaludoz wrote:

As I said (and the reason it was in spoiler, to keep it out of the main conversation), it was an idea off the top of my head to illustrate putting the Ascendancy Class Points behind a similarly acceptable Lore within the game.

If it were tied to Forsaken Masters, I'd add new ranks to them, perhaps even giving them a new version of "Daily mission" perhaps on maps that pit you against a boss of some sort, themed to the ascendancy class you're after, or not, just an idea.

It wasn't a fleshed out idea. Just a concept, to allow people to think beyond the confines of the Labyrinth.

Fair enough, I guess Izaro could play a part in such a thing.
And as a master mission, they could have ( without dying ) for example ( but many would then QQ about it ).

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Zalhan2 wrote:

Its stupid, lets gate our real game with a challenge so noobs can't play the real game.

No it's not, have decision making, and choices that matters ( = risks ) has always been a key element of the game, and it's sad that it's slowing fading away for most of the content.


It only makes it really harder for people that do not know how to build their character properly ( whatever the skill ), and tell them to fix it.
At least until Uber, which is less forgiving ( but most of the player base will never ever reach it tbh, and the ones that do have plenty of time to realize that the overal balance of the game is messed up, by the time they reach it ).

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Regulator wrote:

But still even the 5% at the time was a quarter million dollars on the 50$ supporter pack.

Trying to manipulate number to make them lie atrociously of course, but keep on going with your pseudo-propaganda ....
That is so laughable.

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Regulator wrote:

Good thing is GGG recovered

They didn't "recover" or anything, they were obviously never down in the first place, wake up !

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Regulator wrote:

until then ill continue without them, unless the mtx rewards are too cool to pass

What Mtx did you get for those 40 challenges ? What did those 4 last gave you ?
Riiiight, you are not fooling anybody.
You want IG power, and bragging rights, so you are getting the points, and guess what ? GGG is just fine with that.

You original post might have been from a good intention, but all that silly propaganda is really ................. seriously, I honestly thought that you were better than that, but you keep showing that it's not the case.

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Regulator wrote:

Then we got the daily lab ladders which was the only way to count how many actually were running lab besides that 1 time to get their points.

Actually, it doesn't represent the number of people running the laby. It only represents the players who don't over-level or party-up. So that's 2 groups of players you're not even considering.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

Then we got the daily lab ladders which was the only way to count how many actually were running lab besides that 1 time to get their points.

Actually, it doesn't represent the number of people running the laby. It only represents the players who don't over-level or party-up. So that's 2 groups of players you're not even considering.

He most likely knows but is trying to manipulate numbers to try to do his little propaganda-like campaign.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

Then we got the daily lab ladders which was the only way to count how many actually were running lab besides that 1 time to get their points.

Actually, it doesn't represent the number of people running the laby. It only represents the players who don't over-level or party-up. So that's 2 groups of players you're not even considering.

Normal and cruel have level restrictions sure, do merci and uber have too? If they do then the educated guess i made is more off than naturally a guess is. From this 10k people running the lab the 90+% is on merci and endgame (5k on merci 4k on endgame on the highest traffic days), and from them around 35% have times way more higher than 30minutes that surely means they arent there for farming or because they like the content they just being careful not to mess up with the 1coind Contra game they started. On top of that a player that is not eligible for cruel/normal cause of higher level is not someone who would run (at least at those difficulties) lab regularly. So no real harm done on this scenario. (for example people going in normal at level 45 or 50 or scenarios like that, they dont have to gain anything from running the lab again, and enchants on those levels are more or less reduntant by lvl 50). My initial though was to completely exclude players from normal and cruel with times more than 12-15 minutes depending on the day and layout cause lets be serious there is no economic advantage to make normal/cruel lab runs, and the top runners have always less than 10minutes runs so they are not even competing on the lab race for those difficulties. Still i had everyone with 30minutes or less included on that (very generous) 10k.

People partying up while farming lab must not be a thing (at least i think is not a widely used tactic). This scenario is the only one that the guess might be a bit more off to be honest, since people might gather in 6man parties for uber enchants to save on offerings in the long run, and im sure some do follow this tact but i dont believe in a scale that would change the ladder numbers dramatically. Carries offering lab services add to the ladder cause they run the lab anyways alone to so no harm done in this case too.

On top of that the calculations were made considering every run less 30 minutes is considered a run for fun/rewards. Arent the proud lab defenders claiming farming lab takes 10-15minutes tops in endgame? 5-10minutes in merci? If i were to exlude every run with 20 or more minutes then we are talking for another 2k people off the lab loving list of the ladders.

As i said before, i know the numbers CANT be completely right, but with what we have in our hands and a reasonable speculation that the steam+standalone client have together around 100k on the days im talking about (steam had 29k average in the last weak of the first month), the conclusion is more or less this, around 10% of the playerbase enjoys lab enough to occasionally make runs for fun and rewards. Even my guildie and good friend Pyrokar who is an avid criticizer of the lab runs endgame lab for the insane rewards it offers, THATS how much GGG sugarcoated lab to make it sufferable, and thats not an ovestatement either.

Thats another reason lab has this much participation on top of being mandatory for character optimazation, the candy/loot/rewards offered there are from a time and difficulty perspective the easiest ones to get in the whole game. On a good day with a nice layout offerings go for 6c per and twice enchanted prophecy for 8-9c, and farmers are buying them like crazy (and thats like 2weeks ago when i was still playing), we are talking people spending 4-5 hours at least doing full key lab runs and making 5+ exalts on currency/maps/gems/enchants/uniques/orbs etc. We talk about a sure exalt per hour at least not counting the lucky drops. Find me another place as rewarding as this one, and please think why this thing is so much rewarding compared to everything else, its not even in the top 5most difficult content in the game by popular belief (that would be uber atziri, shaper, chimera/hydra, phoenix, mino etc).