SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]
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Turtledove wrote:
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AceNightfire wrote:
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Fruz wrote:
There is no "original colors".
PoE is still PoE, still going about the same way, and is still great.
We had this discussion already a dozen times and the traps are experimental content. It has not much to do with what PoE was before. Everything outside of the lab is indeed still classic poe. You customize your character, get stronger and destroy thousands of enemies and a boss at the end. I dont see that (except the boss part) in the lab. You walk 15-30 minutes through rooms with little to no enemies and dozens of undestroyable traps, which ignore a big part of your character build, just because reasons. So no, it's clearly not the same PoE as before. If Chris wants PoE to be like this, ok, so be it, but saying the lab goes in line with classic gameplay is just wrong.
Acenightfire speaks the plain facts of truth here. It may not be true for you. That does not mean that it is not true for a significant population of people that enjoyed the original PoE gameplay but do not enjoy the labyrinth gameplay.
This is a stupid plan for GGG to cut off a significant portion of their base customers since it is not possible for them to gain significant customers by this move. Therefore, if GGG is smart, they will eventually fix it.
I don't think you understand the definitions of fact or truth.
You do not set the limits in what an artist creates. You simply like or dislike the work. if you do not like the work, you don't buy it. You do not set the limits of what a developer adds to their game. You simply like or dislike their work. If you like their work , you play it. if you don't, you go play something else.
Suggestions are always appreciated, but this has gone way beyond suggestion, and into the realm of hate toward the artists. As I said before, they are well aware of your crusade. They may even be taking some of your suggestions into consideration. You may very well get your safe space from the evil lab. When they are ready to announce it, they will. If they do decide to keep their creative integrity, then you need to deal with it.
Poe is about mid way of the top 100 games played on steam. I do not think your crusade is having the impact you have deluded yourself into believing.
Even the Beatles wrote "why don't we do it in the road". If the best band ever had as few duds, I think its OK for GGG to.
You do not set the limits in what an artist creates. You simply like or dislike the work. if you do not like the work, you don't buy it. You do not set the limits of what a developer adds to their game. You simply like or dislike their work. If you like their work , you play it. if you don't, you go play something else.
Suggestions are always appreciated, but this has gone way beyond suggestion, and into the realm of hate toward the artists. As I said before, they are well aware of your crusade. They may even be taking some of your suggestions into consideration. You may very well get your safe space from the evil lab. When they are ready to announce it, they will. If they do decide to keep their creative integrity, then you need to deal with it.
Poe is about mid way of the top 100 games played on steam. I do not think your crusade is having the impact you have deluded yourself into believing.
^
But some of them don't listen to anything, they closed their ears and eyes already, I do not think that they care.
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Zalhan2 wrote:
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I don't think you understand the definitions of fact or truth.
The fact is this patch has worse steam numbers than the last one.
The truth is there are a lot of trolls here.
When people are spreading lies over the place, it tells quite a bit about the situation ( from steam, number of players just from steam ) :
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Last 30 Days....5,851.2 -1,573.8 -21.20% 10,974
[...]
May 2016........5,700.8 -4,918.7 -46.32% 11,266
I just took those numbers from another thread, "Prebornfetus" was just spitting blatant and obvious lies, I ruined his post, making him loose even more credibility ( because that's what lying do ).
It's not as bad here, but it still isn't quite a fact.
It's about the same as it was in mid may right now .... however, Perandus started with a much higher number of players.
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Turtledove wrote:
I'm happy for you that you find pleasure in your trolling.
I'm sad for you, ignoring what's right in ront of your eyes or not wanting to comprehend it at all must not be that easy.
And the price of the most irrelevant analogy comes again to ....
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Aug 15, 2016, 9:52:07 PM
Talisman league (Dec 11, 2015)
Prophecy league + 2.3.0 content update (Jun 4, 2016)
Prophecy didn't come close to recovering the high player numbers of Ascendancy, but perhaps you'd expect that from what was just a new league. It looks to me, though, that the drop off after both Ascendancy and Prophecy was relatively steep (certainly when compared with Awakening) and ended in Steam player-numbers close to historic lows.
Presumably there will be a big bump when the Atlas of Worlds expansion comes out, but it'll be interesting to see how big the bump is and what the Steam player retention is like.
Of course, this is just the Steam numbers and those players are a small (and possibly unrepresentative) fraction of the total player base. But only GGG knows the full numbers, and they're not telling us, so this is all we have to go on.
You do not set the limits in what an artist creates. You simply like or dislike the work. if you do not like the work, you don't buy it. You do not set the limits of what a developer adds to their game. You simply like or dislike their work. If you like their work , you play it. if you don't, you go play something else.
Wrong. We players can indeed decide how a game should be developed or at least we can direct the route it's going down. It's quite simple: If we are unhappy with a product, we ignore it and dont pay money. If no one pays money or if the financial income drops significantly, the developer has to fear that he can't pay the bills anymore, ultimatively destroying the game. Same goes for any other product on the market. I dont like something? Sure, lets ignore it. And if enough people do that? The developer will feel the difference if he sticks with his non-liked ideas.
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Xtorma wrote:
Suggestions are always appreciated, but this has gone way beyond suggestion, and into the realm of hate toward the artists. As I said before, they are well aware of your crusade. They may even be taking some of your suggestions into consideration. You may very well get your safe space from the evil lab. When they are ready to announce it, they will. If they do decide to keep their creative integrity, then you need to deal with it.
The thing is: This "crusade" started quite slowly. There were a handful of people joing the anti-lab discussions and that's it. After month now, we have over 180 different people who made their own thread about how the lab is just bad/annoying. And those are only the thread starters. We probably have several hundred different players who posted their opinion about the lab. Some of them were flame, others we constructive feedback. You do understand that this is also a feedback area? If so, then you shouldn't complain, since many people gave negative feedback and this just shows that the lab issues isn't just a small minority. There are really alot of people who dislike the content and the more people püost about that, the more GGG will realize that this is a serious issues which should be taken care of, better now then later.
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Xtorma wrote:
Poe is about mid way of the top 100 games played on steam. I do not think your crusade is having the impact you have deluded yourself into believing.
Since this is a free2play game with no pay2win, you just can't tell how successful this game is. Even if it's one of the most played 100, that doesnt automatically mean many people buy stuff for real money. What GGG needs are attached players who love this game and see enough reasons to buy stash tabs and cosmetic items and support the game.
Last edited by AceNightfire#0980 on Aug 16, 2016, 8:36:36 AM
You only see it as a crusade because there are a lot of people tha feel a very strong hate towards the labyrinth. That means that there is a problem with the game, not that people have been brainwashed by religion or some sadistical tyrant to fight an unjust war. You should not view every big feedback thread as a crusade, but an indication of failure on GGGs part.
I'm a forum warrior, i was born to post, raised to defend my league. Now my post has been removed, chained and exiled by mods who Ban. Ban is my brother; i do not fear it. I see it in the eyes of men and beasts that i troll. It will take me to play the actual game when i am ready and i am not ready.
I call it a crusade because that is what it is. crusaders are trying (not too successfully) to use force to get what they want. Instead of giving feedback and suggestions, and then going about their way while the devs decide on the merit of the suggestions, the crusade is using threats ( I'll leave and take my whole guild with me!) , disrespect, (lab sucks!), and even down right hateful speech,(too many examples to list, lots of probation) to try and force their agenda.
Just on principle ( I have already said that I don't care if they remove ascendancy from the lab and give it out like Halloween candy) I hope they continue to develop what they want, and leave it as they envisioned for those who enjoy it, just to send a message to future crusades, that threats, disrespect and hate will not be rewarded.
If you want the perks, you do the content. If you don't like the content, you go play content you like. If that entails switching to another game, then do so.
I call it a crusade because that is what it is. crusaders are trying (not too successfully) to use force to get what they want. Instead of giving feedback and suggestions, and then going about their way while the devs decide on the merit of the suggestions, the crusade is using threats ( I'll leave and take my whole guild with me!) , disrespect, (lab sucks!), and even down right hateful speech,(too many examples to list, lots of probation) to try and force their agenda.
Spoiler
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Regulator wrote:
I understand GGG has put a lot of effort on the expansion and what im asking is too much, but ascendancy points should be freed from the labyrinth's tyranny. In no way im asking for ascendancy points to be completely free but freed from labyrinth playstyle, meaning that GGG can put them as rewards for someting else.
For starters its the first time in an expansion that GGG gated such content. With "such" i mean immaterial content aka the ascendancy points that feel way too important, personal and flavourful for character customization, thus making the first non-optional expansion. After all this is an ARPG game where min-maxing and character creation/optimization matter a ton.
Even though gating is a dick move, its sometimes needed to make something feel more important. What is the problem though here is that GGG decided that the gate is a completely different game inside PoE. A series and combination of 80' arcade games with 90' action-adventure, aka Indiana Jones meet PoE meet Contra. This has the negative effect of alienating many players who feel excluded from this expansion because they do not find that - obviously different - playstyle fun and/or engaging. PoE can have experimental content, thats fine from and for everyone, but gating something so important behind that is a dumb move from the company
Guess what? there is more. GGG labeled the labyrinth as hard, difficult, skill-based content that will prove to be an alternate end-game. Well they couldnt be more wrong. First of all there is no difficulty issue whatsover, maybe some feel izaro is overtuned for his level but thats easily countered with overleveling or knowing the game mechanics. Second the only skill that someone needs, is to know how to press quicksilver pots or use movement skills. Wait, see pattern of the trap, quicksilver pull lever, and level cleared (just like playing hardcore mario).
But it gets worse. In a game like PoE where the skill tree and character creation is the main attraction surely people's choices must be (and are) very important. Well... labyrinth and especially traps say FUCK YOUR CHOICES, if x person used 50points on his basic skill tree to get hp and armour while y player used 20 points for hp and armour, regarding traps the person with the less hp has actually an easier time in case he gets hit by a trap. WHAT???? How is that possible you may ask, well its easy, healing pots restore higher percentage to the player with the less flat hp pool. Yeah that happens, and its even worse for certain hybrid or pure ES characters. Ofcourse one's players damage and movement choices are unaffected by the labyrinth. So traps ignore and negate specific mechanics while they allow others to trivilize them.So yeah very well thought and fair system.. not.
Its pretty obvious that the labyrinth is dividing the community and for a lot of right reasons. If we take into account PoE's notorius performance issues the matter gets even worse.
So what im suggesting here is for GGG to consider at some point to remove the ascendancy points from labyrinth. Not make them completely free, but remove that tedious, frustrating and unfun playstyle as a requirement to acquire them. There have been suggestions about the matter both in this as well as other similar threads, and its up to GGG to decide how and where Ascendancy Points might fit without causing so much discord.
UPDATE : Its been a while now and GGG has announcent the 4th labyrinth. Nothing has changed though regarding our goal. Everything said here still applies for every labyrinth level (normal,cruel,mercilless,maps). They actually had the "brilliant" idea to implement even more arcade/platform content (pictures added in the "deeper analysis and proof spoiler II)
UPDATE II : My original suggestion still stands as i believe it the easiest to implement (money/time/effort-wise) and its true to GGG's long history of adding new content. Its also the one that will affect the least (in any negative way) lab lovers and most (in a positive way) the lab haters, or more simple its a win-win-win situation (haters-lovers-GGG). On point, i came to realise that many of the suggestions made here are not about different ways of ascending but labyrinth re-make ideas that will make it more approachable and fun and less tedious for people who hate the current labyrinth playstyle or other issues the labyrinth presents, and the sad truth is that many people dont realise that just by reading the thread title and the spoilers.
So in the spirit of what i said i believe its appropriate if the suggestions were actually divided to two categories, the one that already exists and a new one called "labyrinth rework ideas". The purpose of that is to share everyones problem with the labyrinth and give ideas to GGG how it can be more enjoyable or at least a more tolerable experience.
UPDATE III : Thanks to gibbousmoon for the part that will follow, he made a very nice post regarding the main issues/objections people have with the labyrinth, gathered from posts all over the forum. This can be considered as an extended thorough analysis of some of the starting facts stated above in the main text body. Im including this for people to understand better what many of our problems are and not ignorantly assume we all want free stuff as well as for others to find it easier to express what their issues are with it. Comments in italic are some extra observations.
Lab Issues Breakdown
a) Objections to the trap gameplay per se. If you think traps of this nature don't belong in PoE because it is too harsh a departure from the existing gameplay, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game that is a D2 successor, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game subject to network hiccups, or if you think traps of this nature don't belong with a mouse+keyboard control scheme, your objection probably fits in this category.
b) Objections to the non-optional nature of the content. If you think AC points make this content a de facto mandatory part of the game, and you think it should be optional to the same extent other non-expansion additions to the game are optional, your objection probably fits in this category.
c) Objections to the reward structure. If you run the labyrinth despite hating it, believe that content should be intrinsically fun, your objection probably fits in this category.
d) Objections to GGG's approach and implementation. If you think a divided, toxic community is an unhealthy community, and that the labyrinth as it is currently implemented is causing exactly that, your objection probably fits in this category. -This specific one is very crucial and somewhat new part to why the labyrinth as it is currently causes discord. Might not seem like a big issue, but dividing the community to that point only causes problems.
e) Objection to the difficulty of the traps and/or labyrinth. If you think the traps and/or Izaro encounters are too difficult and should be nerfed, your objection probably fits in this category. -Mostly an issue relative to new players and the problems they have with the labyrinth. It might not be a big one but its definately there
The utopian scenario would be for GGG to adress every single objection, doing so might raise other issues (which we might be able or not to predict) but in general if the majority of those were solved then the labyrinth would might even be inviting and interesting for the rest of us. For example a mistake GGG made was adding crazy amounts of rewards like they did in the endgame labyrinth, making those who were already running the labyrinth even more happy (and rich in the process), without adressing the core issues of the lab and why the average player does not want to run it. Notice that i dont mind the rewards being as extravagant as they are in the endgame labyrinth, but people play for fun, Ithaka is just the end, the journey to it is what matters most. In other words they just put a bigger reward for eating shit, without taking the time to transmute the shit into pasta or meat. From the same point of view, if GGG for example was to remove completely the Ascendancy points from the labyrinth as by my initial request, that would still not be the best solution (even if it is definately the most easy solution, time and money-wise, and would definately shut down many complaints), in other words that would be like leaving the shit there forever to stink, ignoring it because part of the issue is no longer linked to it.
It would be sweet if people who want to be involved in a constructive conversation would refer to the point they wished to discuss/analyze/rebuttal.
Alternative Ascension Methods
Every suggestion made (and i could find) in the forums that is in line with the opening post will be mentioned a analyzed a bit here. Suggestions will be in bold, credits and analysis below the suggestion.
I) Every character ascents at specific levels. For example 30-50-70 or 40-60-80 which are the levels anyway most people try the labs in each difficulty. Numbers ofcourse can be changed as GGG sees fit . *Since the endgame lab was introduced another way could be used : at level 20 gain 1 ascendancy point, every 10lvls after that you get another one, up to a total of 8 at level 90
-Regulator, *Prebornfetus
This is the only suggestion that goes 100% in line with every other expansion GGG ever realeased. No gating, free for everyone (like jewel system in the tree) and gratuitous power creeping. Of course making it completely free means that ascension will be just a super OP upgrade to your character without having to do anything for it (like leveling but way more powerful) and will certainly make ascencion feel less rewarding.
II) AC points are also (meaning labyrinth as it is still awards them) awarded from a standalone fight with Izaro. We fight him in 3* stages as it is now but without having to run the labyrinth and the trials (traps, golden doors, puzzles etc) before hand. He awards nothing but AC points, he drops no loot, there is no enchant option and no treasure chests/keys. You cannot party there (only solo). No way to cheese it. *The stages can be increased to make the whole fight harder
-Regulator, *Turtledove
In that way AC are still gated but now behind the usual playstyle and not that of arcade games. It keeps the lore and the harder part of the whole labyrinth experience intact.
III) AC points are also are rewarded after killing Malachai in each difficulty. Labyrinth remains the same. *Since the endgame lab was introduced the whole process could be : 2 points each after dominus kill and 2 points after completing merciless difficulty.
-Regulator, *Prebornfetus
Upsides of this suggestion include: Malachai now has a reward linked to him, gated behind the usual playstyle, its harder to get. Downside : Lore
IV) Combine II and III. You must kill malachai to gain access to a standalone Izaro fight. Izaro rewards only AC points (no drops, no enchants, nothing at all), has 3 stages, and he is harder too kill/buffed. No party allowed inside Izaro fight. Labyrinth remains as it is now too
-EnjoyTheJourney, Pyrokar, Perq, Turtledove
Honestly the most balanced and win-win suggestion, with absolutely no downside but with many upsides. Malachai has a reward linked to him and Merciless one has a purpose. Lore stays almost 100% intact. Still gated but behind normal PoE (hack and slash/arpg) playstyle (no arcade game silliness). Its way harder to get now providing a challenge.
V) Ascendancy Points could also (labyrinth stays as is) be bought from Cadiro with coins 1k normal - 2k cruel - 4k merciless
-AllanonTB
AC points become tradable and thus easier to get, soft gate behind currency/coin farming. Lore issues. Cadiro is going away so no coins after this league. Generally not a very well though idea.
VI) New currency : Ascendancy Orb (i dont remember details on this one so ill suggest), rarity same as divines can drop only in 70+ maps, izaro has 100% chance to drop 1 (max) in mercilless only. It can work as 1 ascendancy point respec too. Labyrinthh stays as it is now.
-Unknown
Lore and labyrinth upsides stay intact. You can have early access to AC points or wait until 70+ maps and be lucky enought to get Ascendancy Orbs to drop. It gives another reward to lab runners that they can trade afterwards for more profit. Downsides include : the current labyrinth downsides, gating behind rng + arcade playstyle. A solid suggestion too.
VII) Trials by combat. Labyrinth remains as it is now (with all the rewards). A new area is created. The new area might resemble fighting pits/gladiatorial arenas/ but can be anything really, from random wilderness, to a dungeon, to "cinematic" high society illegal fighting setting (like the race event descent champion crowd watching). Opponents would be exiles/warbands kind of enemies from the current pool or even better from a new extended one. There would be 3 stages of Izaro fight like now, before each stage you have to win in a battle versus those opponents. Each fight gets progressively more difficult than the previous, for examble in the first stage there might be 10exiles that not only fight against you but against each other, the second stage the exiles become warband members and they team up against you etc.
-EnjoyTheJourney
A refreshing and fun alternative. It fits the Emperor Izaro theme (loosely based on roman emperors and cretan king Minos) and not only keeps current lore intact but enhances it. Absolutely no downside since even the playstyle resembles that of the rest of the game (ARPG/hack&slash). A very entertaining concept indeed that seems to adress almost every issue.
VIII)Account wide one time labyrinth completion after which other character gets ascendancy points as they complete entire acts.
-johnce6
A wonderful idea. Remove the tedious ordeal once and for all. Very similar to number I and III. Upsides: Simple, one time trouble, feels natural to ascend after you chance difficulty levels. Downsides : You still have to run the lab and the trials at least once.
IX)A prophecy chain - The Enlightened I, II, III. Completing the chain grants you 2 ascendancy points. Completing it more than four times for the 8 total ascendancy points grants you ascendancy respec points. Can only be activated after you hit lvl 75 and are in merciless. Common prophecy. You are not required to run the trials. Labyrinth also remains as it currently is with all its rewards.
The Enlightened Chain
- Izaro's Dream is exactly like the first stage of engame's labyrinth Izaro fight. When you are teleported you are sent to the plaza before his room. Area level 75. The prophecy is fullfilled when you kill Izaro.
-Izaro's Vision is exactly like the second stage of the endgame's labyrinth Izaro fight. When you are teleported you are sent to the plaza before his room. Area level 75. The prophecy is fullfilled when you kill Izaro.
-Izaro's Nightmare is exactly like the third and final stage of the endgame's labyrinth Izaro fight. When you are teleported you are sent to the plaza before his room. Area level 75. The prophecy is fullfilled when you kill Izaro.
Mechanics of the fights carry on to the second and third stage of the prophecy chain. Izaro doesnt Drop anything. Mechanics are not the same for all every day, they are completely random. Obviously you cant party. Every part of the prophecy chain costs 2 silver coins to seal it.
-Regulator
A similar idea to other suggestions but implemented in a different way that utilizes the new prophecy system that will probably stay in the game after the leagues. It adresses quite a few of the problems, and since the lab remains as it is, its not forced upon others. Its considerably harder to get the first 6points when compared to a normal/cruel/merci average lab and only slightly easier compared to the endgame lab because you dont to the trials. Ofcourse mechanics and requirements can change as GGG sees fit.
X)Ascendancy Divination Card drops are added to the game. The drop chance is global, but it is substantially higher in yellow maps and inside the labyrinth in each difficulty. Stack size is up to GGG. Each complete set grants 1 ascendancy point. Ofcourse the labyrinth remains as it is.
-Prebornfetus
A very solid and flavourful suggestion. It doesnt messes with lab runners and on top of that it also helps/incentivizes them even more cause there is a new tradeable item to farm. Since every lab in every difficulty has a higher chance to drop them, even low level characters or new players can join the hunt and farm them. I have to say that if this together with the ascendancy orb (VI) were to be implemented most people looking for getting a subclass only would be most happy.
XI) A special ascend event occurs each day. Completion of this would give 1 point. Possible events could be:
A. Kill 15 map bosses.
B. Sell 15 items with 6 sockets or five 5link item.
C. Gain a level.
Or anything else seriously, the possibilities are countless.
Labyrinth remains the same.
-Prebornfetus
What can i say, everything to make the ascencion medium better and more enjoyable is a step in the right direction, and this suggestions is exactly that. The events could even breath some life in the leagues and incentivize group play/player interaction. If we take that a step further by introducing high level master-like missions GGG implements without knowing some form of endgame activity too.
XII) A combination of the above
Number four with number six could make for an awesome new experience for everyone for example. Give an extra incentive for lab runners (since merci izaro will drop Ascendancy Orbs for them to sell afterwards) and allow those who dislike current labyrinth playstyle to have a fun. Other combinations could work too. For example some of the suggestions share mechanics/ideas already but they are unique enough to stand on their own.
-Ill try to update this section if any new suggestion catches my eye. Also if you know who made suggestion VI please link me the thread it was made.
Labyrinth Rework Ideas
1) The labyrinth (izaro, layout, traps, reward room) remains the same. The traps in the labyrinth and the trials can be turned off/be deactivated. How would that work : every trap room has a puzzle that leads to a crank, solving the puzzle would allow you to use the crank and thus deactivate the traps in the room.
-Regulator, Casual_Ascent
What does this achieve? Removal of the arcade playstyle the current traps impose. Slower but more immersing playstyle closer to the RPG style. Since it wont change anything in the way traps work and the layout of the labyrinth, daily lab runners can still benefit from running the lab as fast as they do now, without taking into account the puzzle, so enchants farming and leaderboards racing remains the same. It literally has zero downside if implemented like this. Arcade playstyle for those who love the current trap system, RPG playstyle for those who dislike the arcade one. Another win-win solution. Izaro fights all remain the same. The reward room remains the same. No discrepancy between the two playstyle lovers, both sides get what they want in their preffered playstyle.
2) Remove the traps completely, make the labyrinth bigger with more mandatory puzzles/gold doors, keep the ascendancy points there.
-gibbousmoon
A solid suggestion that perfectly adressess paragraphs 3 and 5, while keeping lore almost intact. In addition it promotes no content skipping. The downside : many people like the arcade playstyle the traps offer and would definately be annoyed by a change like that. Furthermore if something like that was implemented and the labyrinth did indeed get bigger with more mandatory puzzles/gold doors, it would make enchantment system a million times more frustrating and boring than it is now.
3)Labyrinth and Izaro fights remain the same. The traps can be disabled in the start of a new labyrinth run. That can be done by implementing a character who wants currency/lab only uniques* for this service.
-Turtledove, *TheDeathX
In the spirit of suggestion (2), it adresses the exact same issues but without the downside that (2) has for lab farmers. Similar to (1) suggestion it provides with an option to eliminate the arcade playstyle, in exchange for currency. Seems a feasible option true to the "trading" spirit of core PoE. Overall a solid and definately flavourful (a shady character disabling traps for you in exchange of payment is a nice touch seriously) suggestion that could even be used as a currency/unique item* sink for certain unused/unwanted orbs/and uniques* currently in the game.
4) Checkpoints in every aspirant's trial plaza (the area with the stash). Portals opened inside the labyrinth can be joined from Sarn by other party members even if they didnt start the labyrinth from the beginning. Portals can only be opened in aspirant's trial areas. Players entering portals in that way forfeit every kind of reward (loot/treasure keyes/enchantments) except ascendancy points. Players that open them but started the labyrinth from the beginning dont lose anything. Players that die or disconnect or simply get out of the labyrinth via a portal can choose to enter the labyrinth again and teleported to the most recent checkpoint they activated or the portal they opened which will lead to the aspirants trial plaza. Doing so also forfeits every kind of reward except ascendancy points. Everything else remains the same. -Regulator
An easy way to satisfy and solve many problems at once. First and more important people who for any reason disconnect or their game crashes can have the choice to at least somewhat continue their run to get the ascendancy points by forfeiting though every other reward. A fair trade that also refines the whole lab experience. Second, it gives the chance for people who cant/dont want/simply hate the labyrinth to get the ascendancy points and nothing else at all. Labyrinth runners now can sell their runs too so people can ascend. Since nothing else changes that can for the right price keep everyone happy.
5)Give every player who joins the labyrinth the choice between 2 ways of defeating the labyrinth. The current labyrinth and the arcade playstyle is one way, the other more classic and true to the core game.
explanatory image
-AceNightfire
Options, more are always better and this suggestion just proves it. A solid well thought one, addresses perfectly 3 of the 5 points made in the OP and makes the rest reduntant. Since its optional it gives reason for all interested in the labyrinth and/or ascendancy points to run what they like. The only downside i can see is that extra work GGG needs to put to implement this.
6)Traps can be destroyed with damage from skills. That includes traps in every labyrinth as well as trials. The can be done in varius ways, either traps have flat hp, or they need 2/3/4 hits each to destroy them, or depending on the difficulty players do % damage to them with skills.
-sofocle10000, morbo
Similar to 1), instead of deactivating and puting more classical rpg elements in poe, it keeps the ARPG theme and you can smash and destroy the environmental obstacles. Sounds fun and at least its true to PoE original gameplay. A solid suggestion and a rather easy to be implemented. It also does not interfere with enchants farming neither racing since to destroy the traps it will take much more time than just jumping (or just passing) over them.
Stats
some stats for the second week of ascendancy
Maps 3,935,376
Merciless Dried Lake 1,188,825
Merciless Docks 732,380
Merciless Solaris 1 667,079
Merciless Labyrinth 235,415
Not including time in Hideouts and Town, the breakdown looks like this :
Normal 40.3575%
Cruel 20.4968%
Merciless 20.4086%
Maps 12.6867%
Labyrinth 6.0503%
Its only natural that the maps percentage and runs will go up as time passes, the same is supposed to happen for lab too. What if though the only reason lab has that "much" attendance is cause of the ascendancy points? they are obviously very strong and they are a reason to lure players to do the new experimental content. The right time to remove AC points from the labyrinth is when they implement the daily rewards for the fastest runners. Lets actually see what is the real percentage of people who are interested in the lab itself.
Deeper Analysis and Proof
I
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Regulator wrote:
For starters its the first time in an expansion that GGG gated such content. With "such" i mean immaterial content aka the ascendancy points that feel way too important, personal and flavourful for character customization, thus making the first non-optional expansion. After all this is an ARPG game where min-maxing and character creation/optimization matter a ton.
Path of Exile wiki - All the information about every expansion so far, in short, GGG has released 4 expansions so far
Sacrifice of the Vaal - Atziri gated items
Forsaken Masters - Masters gated item customization mechanic (crafts)
The Awakening - added Jewel sockets in the tree FOR EVERYONE, new CORE content, Lockstep
Ascendancy - Lab gated item customization mechanic (enchants), gated items (uniques + treasure chest), gated ASCEDANCY POINTS
Lead developer of GGG Chris Wilson also stated the non-optional nature of ascendancy expansion HERE (minute 39 and onwards of the linked video). In short he compared it to atziri and said how putting AC behind it made it instantly not optional.
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Regulator wrote:
Even though gating is a dick move, its sometimes needed to make something feel more important. What is the problem though here is that GGG decided that the gate is a completely different game inside PoE. A series and combination of 80' arcade games with 90' action-adventure, aka Indiana Jones meet PoE meet Contra. This has the negative effect of alienating many players who feel excluded from this expansion because they do not find that - obviously different - playstyle fun and/or engaging. PoE can have experimental content, thats fine from and for everyone, but gating something so important behind that is a dumb move from the company
Indiana Jones : Spike Trap
2:50:00 - Lava Floor
3:34:00 - Puzzle to progress
3:58:35 - Spike Trap
3:58:50 - Another Trap
Prince of Persian : Guillotine Trap(not currently in PoE)
10:23 - Timed Cranks
15:44 - Timed Cranks + Spike Traps
25:03 - Using Leap Slam to pass over Spike Traps
Go and check in each video the timestamps. The links might not work correctly but the timestamps are ok
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Bex_GGG wrote:
There's also a new gauntlet type where you have to move a payload object on rails through an area.
PoE new gantlet type
Indiana Jones
III
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Regulator wrote:
Guess what? there is more. GGG labeled the labyrinth as hard, difficult, skill-based content that will prove to be an alternate end-game. Well they couldnt be more wrong. First of all there is no difficulty issue whatsover, maybe some feel izaro is overtuned for his level but thats easily countered with overleveling or knowing the game mechanics. Second the only skill that someone needs, is to know how to press quicksilver pots or use movement skills. Wait, see pattern of the trap, quicksilver pull lever, and level cleared (just like playing hardcore mario).
Path of Exile: Ascendancy (News Coverage)
You can check every video or article there to see the valitidy of my claims. If you do not have the time to do so, here are some quotes. Take into account how these quotes support also the previous truth.
"The Labyrinth is assembled as if it were a Roguelike game, Wilson said. According to Wilson, each Labyrinth run should take about 45 minutes to an hour"
"Path of Exile's free new Ascendancy expansion looks roguelike-like"
"The Labyrinth leans heavily on the new traps, with complicated patterns that remind me as much of Prince of Persia: Sands of Time"
"The labyrinth is a marathon of horrors, as players will need to set aside an average of 45-60 minutes to complete it. This will be one of the first additions that will introduce roguelike elements to Path of Exile"
Those were the initial estimations, but since you can fucking cheese your way through with quickisilvers, movement speed on gear and movement skills the time has gone down by a lot, to the point where people claim to do lab runs in under five minutes.
IV
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Regulator wrote:
But it gets worse. In a game like PoE where the skill tree and character creation is the main attraction surely people's choices must be (and are) very important. Well... labyrinth and especially traps say FUCK YOUR CHOICES, if x person used 50points on his basic skill tree to get hp and armour while y player used 20 points for hp and armour, regarding traps the person with the less hp has actually an easier time in case he gets hit by a trap. WHAT???? How is that possible you may ask, well its easy, healing pots restore higher percentage to the player with the less flat hp pool. Yeah that happens, and its even worse for certain hybrid or pure ES characters. Ofcourse one's players damage and movement choices are unaffected by the labyrinth. So traps ignore and negate specific mechanics while they allow others to trivilize them.So yeah very well thought and fair system.. not.
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Vipermagi wrote:
Trap Damage is relative to your HP/ES, similar to Righteous Fire. No matter how much HP you have, standing in the middle of a trap like a doofus will get you killed in no time.
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Vipermagi wrote:
Worth noting: most traps seem to deal Damage over Time, dealing more Damage the closer you are to the center of it.
I couldnt find more info on the matter (since you know GGG likes to keep things hidden) but those two quotes from the master Vipermagi are more than enough. Basically since most traps deal percentage damage over time, every skill point on the tree that is spend on armour,evasion,dodge,block, HP, ES, endurance charges is rendered COMPLETELY USELESS. In contrary every movement speed node, damage node, HP regeneration node are not in any way affected.
V
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Regulator wrote:
Its pretty obvious that the labyrinth is dividing the community and for a lot of right reasons. If we take into account PoE's notorius performance issues the matter gets even worse.
That is not an argument directly for labyrinth but for the game in general, and since it happens that the mechanics of the lab are unforgiving it had to be mentioned. I do not believe anyone has anything to say against it. Recent news announcements and how they try to improve the game's performance is enough of evidence that the game sucks on that department.
EDIT: Made title, OP and the suggestion more clear. Deeper analysis and proof supporting the suggestion. Added alternatives to ascend. Added labyrinth rework ideas. Link to a poll regarding the labyrinth/enchants/ascendancies. New link to a poll regarding labyrinth only.
If the above spoiler and the contents in it does not qualify as constructive feedback paired with solid suggestions and reasoning i doubt anything in the forums is considered as such then.
I understand being somewhat hostile to the end goal we are pursuing here, but please have some dignity when talking bullshit.
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Xtorma wrote:
Just on principle ( I have already said that I don't care if they remove ascendancy from the lab and give it out like Halloween candy) I hope they continue to develop what they want, and leave it as they envisioned for those who enjoy it, just to send a message to future crusades, that threats, disrespect and hate will not be rewarded.
If you want the perks, you do the content. If you don't like the content, you go play content you like. If that entails switching to another game, then do so.
They developed a game and then decided to make a 180 turn and implement something that is - if not totally- then quite a bit different (experimental and alienating content) than the base game and FORCED the players to do it. Im sure you can understand how bad of a taste that leaves in the mouth dont you? Again please understand we want the labyrinth to stay as it is, but implement an alternative ONLY to the ascandancy points, cause we are being left out and even those who decide to swallow their pride and do it for those subclasses still feel punished and neglected. We want a way to acquire them more similar to the base game is that so hard to undertand?
Yes leaving for another game is the final solution, but we try and fight for PoE cause we care and love the game.
I also suggest you read things like this. While complaining might seem really annoying for the rest of the population, its the only way to make a problem of yours known. There is no forcing (as you said in the first paragraph), cause giving feedback (which in this case is negative critisism) is the only way to pass the message.
What do you want for those who feel neglected, disrespected, lied to - because of a very unthought decision to force "optional" content - to do? Even outright leaving the game might give the wrong information to the devs (why the left? might be the performance and they had enough, might be they didnt like the insane powercreep, maybe the league was shit etc).
On the other side what do people like you offer? Critising feedback because you find it annoying? Dont read it, contrary to the labyrinth itself our feedback is not forced to you. So what the opposite side tries to accomplish in this "war"? We might come out as whinners but the other side comes out as hostile malevolent a-holes, adding literally nothing but hate towards something they dont agree or dont understand/sympathize with. We are labeled as haters but they only hating comes from white knights against not only our goal but at us as people.
Its not like we want to take something from you or force a change in your playstyle - something the labyrinth did very well, so why the hate and the unreasonable comments? Why is so important to you to bury something just because you cant or dont want to understand? Since when more options without screwing the rest of the players is bad? I seriously like GGG, but blindly defending every single one of their decisions (fanboism, white knighting) in the long run is unhealthy for the game itself, it isnt perfect after all, or is it? Allowing such a major change of pace and gameplay experience is like giving them the green light to implement racing and turn based combat.
I don't see threats. The numbers show people dropped off after lab because it kills replay. People here said they will not make more than 1 char (if that many) because Lab kills replay ability (or play ability).
No one asked for candy.
Trolls make stuff up and distort obvious numbers anyone could interpret.
