SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

That moment when I have to agree with TheAnuhart

FeelsBadMan

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goetzjam wrote:

That moment when I have to agree with TheAnuhart

FeelsBadMan

Well, where you and I may lock horns is whether it is good design or not. That it is the design, however, is not much of a debate.

Personally I just think GGG design too much as economy stimulant, at the cost of too much play-ability.
The balance of the two could be better.

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Turtledove wrote:

One thing that GGG has done that probably reduces "economy" but is better for the game is increasing the drop rate of high tier uniques by 4x.

That was reverted, btw. But several T1 ultimate chase items are no longer ultimate chase items and are no longer T1.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

That moment when I have to agree with TheAnuhart

FeelsBadMan

Well, where you and I may lock horns is whether it is good design or not. That it is the design, however, is not much of a debate.

Personally I just think GGG design too much as economy stimulant, at the cost of too much play-ability.
The balance of the two could be better.

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Turtledove wrote:

One thing that GGG has done that probably reduces "economy" but is better for the game is increasing the drop rate of high tier uniques by 4x.

That was reverted, btw. But several T1 ultimate chase items are no longer ultimate chase items and are no longer T1.

I guess briefly how would you view the balance of being better?


I know you play SSF and many aspects of the game are designed around NOT being that.


And yeah the rarity of T1 uniques was buffed by 4 times, then the more rarer ones were made harder to find again because shavs for 2-3ex is laughable.

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goetzjam wrote:

I guess briefly how would you view the balance of being better?


I know you play SSF and many aspects of the game are designed around NOT being that.

I wouldn't ever want the game designed around SSF, I think a good example, at risk of going there, was D3. I was happier playing SSF in original D3 than when they went full BtA. Making loot drop BtA at the rate one would previously get it from the AH, didn't really do much for me.

I'm critical of GGG economy focus design as you well know, but what people often don't realise is that I don't want the opposite.

I could say they should just design content as content and let the economy be what it is, but I know that will never happen because the economy IS the most important element to GGG. But even accepting that GGG will design primarily for the economy, as someone who doesn't partake in the economy and thus falls victim (for want of a better word) to many aspects of the game which just plain suck without using the economy, I see a lot that people don't.

There are always issues that needn't be issues, that needn't be so terrible without trading, yet can still be good for the economy.

Original Atziri/uber was a good example, the whole way it was designed around being easily accessed through trade but absolutely atrocious without. If you look at how accessible atziri is now compared to then, it is night and day. Atziri, as content, could have been this accessible at the start. Less of an economy stimulant, but still an economy stimulant yet more accessible without economy. Uber is still pretty bad, but better.


Another example is the original chisel recipe being lvl 15 base item. Completely designed as an economy stimulant, yet absolutely terrible as a recipe without. As it happens it was even bad as an economy stimulant and changed to be all 3 hammer bases. I still maintain, if there had been an army of bots ready to flip monkeys in A2N and supply hammers up the pyramid, it would not have changed to be all 3 bases. Even the bots turned their noses at it.


Vinktar Square. A flask, that drops from a map, that is a recipe from vending 4 unique items, one or two of which are extremely rare. It's highly probable you could play a 3 month league 12 hours every day and not find those 4 staves. The flask can be bought, the map can be bought, the staves can be bought, if you want the flask, it's easy as poe.trade, whether you buy the flask, buy the map or buy the staves. There is no reason for the access to the content to be so gated behind trade.

The lab goes a few steps further, I think a real teller is how it spits in the face of progression. There could be a progression of enchanting your items in merciless lab, then upgrading them in uber lab. The sheer fact that you will undoubtedly remove your working merciless enchant with no option to refuse the overwrite speaks volumes to how much GGG value economy over play-ability.

As I explained earlier, there are many ways that the lab design is to not have people running it, but circumventing the RNG of the enchants, the trap content, even the threat of death for your APs (through carries) by economy and having a few monopolise the many.

You can design for economy without making economy necessary. You can design for economy without making not using the economy terrible. You can design with both in mind.

RNG is at the core of aRPGs. I love it, it gives the wow factor. When you layer RNG, upon more RNG, then gate access behind more RNG, then make that content itself something not many will like, then allow every stage to be circumvented by economy, you are no longer using RNG for wow factor, but as economy stimulation alone. It either sucks, or you circumvent it.

I could go on, I haven't scratched the surface.

Interesting perspective.

The only thing I kinda disagree with is the vinktars square map. While it is somewhat gated and RNG it is more rewarding then regular atziri and less rewarding then uber atziri, I find the accessibility somewhere inbetween there.

In terms of gaining access to content or items self found in 3 months, I don't think that is a realistic goal for many, if you wanted to get vinktars then I think I would farm torture chamber map. Still there is a bit of RNG on getting the correct staves and the flask afterwords.

I think vinktars is a perfect example of the content in this game that is designed around trade, because its so much easier to access it or the rewards with it, but if you wanted to do it purely solo, well it will take a while. Then again the rewards are so specific that I think its ok to justify the limited access for SSF players.



As for the lab enchantments I agree the option to keep enchantments would be good, that might actually be what makes merciless lab worth farming, because as of now I see no real reason to do it after you get the AC points, because the uber lab is more rewarding.

As for the lab carry, its mainly for the boss encounter, you as a player still have to go thru various sets of traps.

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goetzjam wrote:

As for the lab carry, its mainly for the boss encounter, you as a player still have to go thru various sets of traps.

Look at the gauntlets again.

The gold door gauntlet you don't even need to enter the zone. Just wait outside the gold door for your carry to come back.

The other gauntlets, see those levers at the end that open a door that you need to be the other side of in order to open any way? Shortcuts the carry opens to let you through.

And yes, the boss encounter that you don't even have to be in the encounter in order to get credit and your APs.


Content you will rather pay to circumvent > content you want to do.

Enchant system you rather poe.trade to circumvent > enchant system you want to use.

Lab tiers that make all but the final pointless > a progression system you will use.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

As for the lab carry, its mainly for the boss encounter, you as a player still have to go thru various sets of traps.

Look at the gauntlets again.

The gold door gauntlet you don't even need to enter the zone. Just wait outside the gold door for your carry to come back.

The other gauntlets, see those levers at the end that open a door that you need to be the other side of in order to open any way? Shortcuts the carry opens to let you through.

And yes, the boss encounter that you don't even have to be in the encounter in order to get credit and your APs.

Gold door is obvious but isn't even there in all labs on all days.

As for the bypass levers, its there on some occasions, but not all. You as a player cannot 100% avoid navigating thru every single trap, there will be ones you have to navigate thru.


Much like all other boss kills you can be in the room outside the boss area to get credit. So it follows the same principles as the rest of the game there.

That isn't to say your point is really "wrong" about the lab, but the encounter is achieveable solo with proper planning.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

As for the lab carry, its mainly for the boss encounter, you as a player still have to go thru various sets of traps.

Look at the gauntlets again.

The gold door gauntlet you don't even need to enter the zone. Just wait outside the gold door for your carry to come back.

The other gauntlets, see those levers at the end that open a door that you need to be the other side of in order to open any way? Shortcuts the carry opens to let you through.

And yes, the boss encounter that you don't even have to be in the encounter in order to get credit and your APs.


Content you will rather pay to circumvent > content you want to do.

Enchant system you rather poe.trade to circumvent > enchant system you want to use.

Lab tiers that make all but the final pointless > a progression system you will use.

Your entire premise has too much...



If you listen to Chris talk about trading as it relates to new players and how much of the player base even trades "actively," you could never draw the conclusions that you are trying to push.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

If you listen to Chris talk about trading as it relates to new players and how much of the player base even trades "actively," you could never draw the conclusions that you are trying to push.

Well, I totally do.

Because Chris also tells us that over half of new PoE players never get past Normal Brutus.


I can't understand you, dude.

Are you gonna offer up another explanation of why the lab as content and why the enchant system sux so bad for so many? Why in the face of uproar the response from GGG was to add MORE lab?

Was it a whoops?

Magical faeries?

?

I know it's shit that the lab exists the way it does, but disputing why it does with nothing to offer as to another reason, just because that reality doesn't result in much promise of it changing isn't going to help you.

Pretend it's magical faeries and they might magically change it if you want, post silly pics and 'lies, damned lies and statistics' without context if you want, dispute the reality if you want, it won't get you results.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Pretend it's magical faeries and they might magically change it if you want, post silly pics and 'lies, damned lies and statistics' without context if you want, dispute the reality if you want, it won't get you results.

But they have nothing else to hold onto except magical faeries and the idea that they might magically make a change despite tons of far more pressing issues at hand.

Last time GGG commented on the lab they said there was no plans to change it, don't know why people can't understand that.