SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Kalidor wrote:

With your standards and perception, if we lab haters are 4 then the white knights are what? half a person?

^ pure gold

Here ill quote that post again because i dont believe it has sunk in people's mind. The situation is much more dire than white knights try to showcase and thus they ignore (like they are programmed to do) any fact and reason. FACTS, not white knight bullshit


A friendly reminder to the white knights that have been trying to build a case out of pure bullshit. The issue is not the difficulty, it has never been, stop spamming shit about that. Labyrinth for a big percentange of the population IS NOT FUN, PERIOD. It doesnt have to do with glass cannon builds (they dont exist in HC to begin with), with inability to nagivate through it, with difficulty with with with.... Last time i say it, FUN is subjective, it depends on someone's personality, you CANT JUDGE THAT. Make your case based on solid arguments regarding the matter at hand, not by blaming/criticizing other people and degrading their opinion, their opinion is what it is, respect it even if you dont agree, dont offend them. All you achieve doing that is making a fool of yourselves.

The comment learn/adapt/get better is - politely put - not valid. Why someone should even try to be better/adapt/learn for something that he clearly does not enjoy? This is a bloody hobby meant to offer entertainment. Can you understand simple things like that? Can you for at least five minutes put your ego and stubbornness aside and see the bigger picture? See things as they really are? We are talking about an activity (labyrinth) that is obviously not fun for a big percentage of the playerbase. Not only that but from refusing (as it is only natural) to do something they dont find fun they lose a vital part of character and build planning. They lose something that it is not possible to gain in any other way, and that is the first time this happens. This gating, nontheless is behind something so different that nobody cant deny, and that is a wrong move. The sooner you people are able to grasp that the better. We are not trying to steal your fun (we cant since the lovers actually enjoy that playstyle) we are trying salvage some fun out of this expansion for ourselves.

And lets put that again on the table, why are you so fiercely defending this gating? You will be the first ones to actually cry (yes cry, cause until now you cant even form reasonable arguments) when in the future GGG gates someting so important as further improvement and character customization is, behind some "optional" content that you dont agree with. What if jewel sockets were gated behind Core Malachai?
On another note, someone please answer me that, would you still defend this AC gating if for example the gate was not the labyrinth, but PvP? Huh?

BTW, numbers in case you still dont get it are not in your favour, that 6% includes labyrinth in normal/cruel/merciless, and dont forget that many people are doing the lab also for the challenges at the moment. There are also a lot who did it (and added to that number) that simply never done it again. Why? Simple, cause its NOT FUN, and doesnt offer any enjoyment beside that moment when you ascend (for our side, for the pro lab players offers excitement even after ascension).

Something was said about Atziri in previous pages. Dont forget that by forfeiting Atziri you didnt lose anything as personal as AC are. And people were farming side areas as crazy and they where OPTIONAL, TRULY OPTIONAL. Not labyrinth optional.


Last but not least ill repeat the suggestion i made before:

Suggestion: So whats the next step? Improve rewards in the labyrinth, make more uniques that only drop in the labyrinth and izaro, fix the performance issues inside the labyrinth, add the daily rewards for those who really enjoy the labyrinth runs and finally and most importantly SET FREE ASCENDANCY POINTS from labyrinth's tyranny.

Tell me with arguments and reason how this solution has any negative effect to your playstyle? How it affects you and me? How it affects the game?

From my point of view, you are still rewarded with :
1) Pure fun and excitement cause of the playstyle that you people seem to so much enjoy
2) From the treasure chests after Izaro
3) From the loot from Izaro himself
4) From the enchantment farming
5) From the daily reward that will soon be implemented

All that change offers for us the "haters" is a chance to have fun and mess around with the AClasses. We are not even asking for them to be free, just not gated behind something THAT tedius, boring and alienating from PoE.

P.S. : The times the white knights have contradicted themeselves in this and other similar threads, might be higher than the total labyrinth runs in both the Perandus leagues. :D

So the people play in the labyrinth half the time they play in maps (12% vs. 6%). Seems a success to me.

Seriously, stop reading what you want to read, and learn some rigour. Actually, the data is insufficient, and it rather hints the opposite conclusion.

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BUT you did hit the nail on the head with what you said. The real problem here is perceived difficulty. What one person considers easy for whatever reason a whole shit ton of other people might find too difficult for the reward.

The problem is the people who don't find it too difficult are trying to force their opinion on those that do. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

Well the thing is, right now I would say people are just not used to it. Same with Oversoul back in the day, a boss that is not hard, but you didn't know the mechanic and all. Same with Merveil, Same with Dominus and Piety etc. However this time people are not forced to do these things. It is too tempting to just ignore them and move on, the game didn't get harder there is no real reason to go for the ascendancies. So the pressure to actually adept to the situation is not there. I totally dislike the Kaom and Malachai fights because they feel too crowded and overwhelming in normal (not necessarily hard) but the game gives me no choice, it just forces me through.

And now there is the labyrinth and since it is not a mandatory area (which actually gives a very fair point for people saying ascendancy is optional, similar to those additional skill points some quests provide) people are not forced to go through it and actually have the luxury to complain without being stopped by it.

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No, something less challenging.

Here is the thing. I died to Izaro, I died to mobs in the labyrinth. I don't die to traps. So for me less challanging would mean less Izaro more traps. And I'm not a player who is really good at movement and paying attention. A lot of my deaths are from actually not paying attention or being too greedy etc.

Traps however are completly fair opponents. They deal a fixed amount of damage, they behave consistent and I can often just pass them. They don't even chase me if I cheese them. I can't honestly imagine an easier challange than crossing over some traps. I often panicked and died in my first tries. But as soon as I noticed that the damage of most traps is too weak to kill you in one hit I just stand still if a trap hits me. I learned to chose the right trap to damage me if I need to take a hit etc. And it is not really hard, the game forced me through the same process with Malachai and now I can do him... mostly, he still punishs me way harder for bad movement than traps do, but I rarely die to him anymore, exspecially on normal.

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A friendly reminder to the white knights that have been trying to build a case out of pure bullshit. The issue is not the difficulty, it has never been, stop spamming shit about that. Labyrinth for a big percentange of the population IS NOT FUN, PERIOD.

If it is not the difficulty than suck it up and do it 3 times... that all there is to it. I don't like Malachai like I mentioned. I still have to kill him twice. And I just do it and be done with it. He takes a bit less time than labyrinth. And if GGGs stats proof one thing than that people are just doing that. Even if they don't enjoy the labyrinth, which is a totally fair point they deal with it and do it just as often as necessary. I won't be going back defeating Malachai either, he stays undefeated in merciless for most of my chars, since I don't have to do him.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

No, something less challenging.

BUT you did hit the nail on the head with what you said. The real problem here is perceived difficulty. What one person considers easy for whatever reason a whole shit ton of other people might find too difficult for the reward.

The problem is the people who don't find it too difficult are trying to force their opinion on those that do. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of moving them from the lab because it's a low level reward that should be gated behind a more accessible, lower level of difficulty and moving them won't have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab while at the same time allowing those who don't enjoy it to not feel required to run it.

Why couldn't say this then:

"The problem is the people who find it too difficult/boring are trying to force their opinion on those that don't. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of not moving them from the lab because it's a high level reward that should be gated behind a less accessible, hard level of difficulty and moving them would have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab making it less rewarding/pointless to do."

Honestly, I think people should adapt at this point. There are some complaints that are valid (performance issues, overly long, punishing area) but I don't expect GGG to puts the points outside the labyrinth, but rather adapt the labyrinth to not waste content (moving points in normal and cruel would basically make the labyrinth extremely inefficient to run). Expect a compromise, not a capitulation.

^There are so many things that need to be changed with the labyrinth...
-It's badly designed and balanced because it favours certain builds.
-It forces playstyles on players that they do not prefer, it brings standard to hardcore and hardcore to standard.
-It doesn't fit with PoE and makes a lot of people feel alienated from PoE. (inb4 response: It's PoE now! Well no, now it's hardly PoE...)
-It is limiting the characters that the people who don't like it create, since they have to go through it and through the freaking trials as well, three freaking times on each freaking difficulty.

I am sure there are more problems with it that elude me at the moment, but you get the gist of it.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

No, something less challenging.

BUT you did hit the nail on the head with what you said. The real problem here is perceived difficulty. What one person considers easy for whatever reason a whole shit ton of other people might find too difficult for the reward.

The problem is the people who don't find it too difficult are trying to force their opinion on those that do. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of moving them from the lab because it's a low level reward that should be gated behind a more accessible, lower level of difficulty and moving them won't have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab while at the same time allowing those who don't enjoy it to not feel required to run it.

Why couldn't say this then:

"The problem is the people who find it too difficult/boring are trying to force their opinion on those that don't. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of not moving them from the lab because it's a high level reward that should be gated behind a less accessible, hard level of difficulty and moving them would have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab making it less rewarding/pointless to do."

Honestly, I think people should adapt at this point. There are some complaints that are valid (performance issues, overly long, punishing area) but I don't expect GGG to puts the points outside the labyrinth, but rather adapt the labyrinth to not waste content (moving points in normal and cruel would basically make the labyrinth extremely inefficient to run). Expect a compromise, not a capitulation.

I would be saying that if the points were a higher level reward. And personally I'm against making the lab itself any easier.

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I would be saying that if the points were a higher level reward. And personally I'm against making the lab itself any easier.

The thing is. After the first failures in the labyrinth the actual feeling of beating it is even greater. At this point the reward doesn't even matter (when I beat the labyrinth in merciless for the first time even underleveled I actually forgot to get the ascendancy points because it was just good to do it, exspecially since I accidently buffed Izaro a bit with those conduits and there were fire and shock explosions all over the place :P

If people would just do it, they would be already done with the labyrinth. So instead of thinking about it, discussing if it is a high or a low reward or if it is too hard or too boring it is better to go by 3 simple words: "Just do it."

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Emphasy wrote:

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I would be saying that if the points were a higher level reward. And personally I'm against making the lab itself any easier.

The thing is. After the first failures in the labyrinth the actual feeling of beating it is even greater. At this point the reward doesn't even matter (when I beat the labyrinth in merciless for the first time even underleveled I actually forgot to get the ascendancy points because it was just good to do it, exspecially since I accidently buffed Izaro a bit with those conduits and there were fire and shock explosions all over the place :P

If people would just do it, they would be already done with the labyrinth. So instead of thinking about it, discussing if it is a high or a low reward or if it is too hard or too boring it is better to go by 3 simple words: "Just do it."

Newsflash: They've already done it and they still don't like it. Most of them.
You have to do it in order to realise you don't like it.

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Pyrokar wrote:

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Emphasy wrote:

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I would be saying that if the points were a higher level reward. And personally I'm against making the lab itself any easier.

The thing is. After the first failures in the labyrinth the actual feeling of beating it is even greater. At this point the reward doesn't even matter (when I beat the labyrinth in merciless for the first time even underleveled I actually forgot to get the ascendancy points because it was just good to do it, exspecially since I accidently buffed Izaro a bit with those conduits and there were fire and shock explosions all over the place :P

If people would just do it, they would be already done with the labyrinth. So instead of thinking about it, discussing if it is a high or a low reward or if it is too hard or too boring it is better to go by 3 simple words: "Just do it."

Newsflash: They've already done it and they still don't like it. Most of them.
You have to do it in order to realise you don't like it.

Might be news for some, but nothing is really perfect. I don't like parts of the game too. But it's just the game, it is a vision a designer or a group of them has and puts them to life. And after all I usually have to think about how much this dislike actually matters. And usually I'm more annoyed early on but after a while it just stops mattering. I still dislike the Masters and Malachai, having to level them every league get's kinda old. But well just happens. I just pick them up and randomly level them and I also kill Malachai a bunch of times. And overall it is not even a hour a character has to spend in the labyrinth.

^You can bypass the other imperfections in the game. This one you can not.
You should read the one before my previous post as well. The problems with the labyrinth are deeply rooted.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

I would be saying that if the points were a higher level reward. And personally I'm against making the lab itself any easier.

If the points are a low level reward, why would you care then? They are powerful and you care, or they are weak and you don't.