SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If choice is Ascend OR Trade, I'm going Trade.

Every. Single. Fucking. Time.

You're not getting it.


Trading is optional.


Ascendancies are not.


And no, you just chose the lesser of the two options. You can trade all you want, but in a theoretical universe where I have infinite time, my character's power level will be astronomically higher then yours once gear differences equalize.

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sidtherat wrote:

so do the lab and move on?

because now it is either a stupid-bordering stubbornes (also called 'principles' for a bit of masquerade) or lack of skill/bad build

so will you just complete the lab in 30 minutes (if you had no problem with "It's doable, you just have to play a shit ton" there should be no excuse)

Who said I couldn't do it? I'm merely saying that it's silly that anyone is forced to play content like this in the first place. Some people don't enjoy it, and that's fine. When such a large amount of your player base doesn't like it though (and it's very clear that it's not just here, but on Reddit too), and you've tied character progression to it, then it becomes a problem.


This is especially true since the Lab is far more punishing on ES/Hybrid ES/Life characters then on a straight Life/Regen character.

Your flawed argument is that Ascension is not optional. It is. You can get to any endgame content, Core maps, Utziri, etc, without Ascending.

Cruel Malachai is not optional; he blocks your further progress. Merciless Malachai is optional; he doesn't.

Both Ascendancy classes and trade are optional. Both are also optimal. The best answer is to choose both. But the real question I'm asking is: if you could only choose one, which is more powerful?

I'm asking it rhetorically. Trade is. (In part because there is no theoretical situation wherein you or anyone else has infinite time.)

Some people might not be aware of this, so I feel compelled to mention that, like it or not, there are in fact people who derive pleasure simply from having people 'beneath' them in terms of status or power. I'm not accusing anyone in particular of this directly or saying I'm one of these people personally, but it might in fact remove enjoyment from some players just removing the ascendancy points from the lab for that reason alone.

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allbusiness wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

so do the lab and move on?

because now it is either a stupid-bordering stubbornes (also called 'principles' for a bit of masquerade) or lack of skill/bad build

so will you just complete the lab in 30 minutes (if you had no problem with "It's doable, you just have to play a shit ton" there should be no excuse)

Who said I couldn't do it? I'm merely saying that it's silly that anyone is forced to play content like this in the first place. Some people don't enjoy it, and that's fine. When such a large amount of your player base doesn't like it though (and it's very clear that it's not just here, but on Reddit too), and you've tied character progression to it, then it becomes a problem.


This is especially true since the Lab is far more punishing on ES/Hybrid ES/Life characters then on a straight Life/Regen character.

Referring to your "statement" that I highlighted above, sidtherat has stated as fact that there are only about four people that don't like the labyrinth. So I'd say that is really the crux of the issue here. The problem being that it is new game play, game play that is unlike the fantastic game play that is in the rest of PoE. This means if a significant percentage of customers don't like labyrinth game play then GGG has a problem. If not then there is no problem. If it was really just four customers the didn't like the labyrinth (which is total BS in my opinion) then sidtherat would be right. What percentage is it really? My guess is that it's probably around 30% or 40% that don't enjoy the labs.

30%? 40%? maybe 99%? numbers pulled out of you know where

truth be told - this is content that punishes certain build and certain players: glass cannon offscreening bow users that have no clue what they are doing but rest of the game simply is not threatening to them. right click to victory. lab checks their skill and their build. and kills them

players using these types of builds have two options: get better and build more balanced builds and be good or endlessly cry-a-river in hope that this - obviously deliberate - obstacle is removed

when i check profiles of players who have issues and 'demand' it be removed it is always the same: bow build, bad flasks, little defenses whatsoever but perfectly maximized offence

stories about it taking 30 minutes, stories about it requiring overleveling +20lvls or more etc have one in common - are bollocks. nonsense spread by people who got checked and failed the check

get better and pass the test - lab is the test for a build and for a player - or remain where you are playing your right-click-to-victory Wharf clearer

and yes - 5 lab haters: you, guy youve quoted and a pair of 'i quit' (yet their achievement counters go up) gentlemen + one who really quit)


you might not like it but man up and work for your reward. if you cannot - get better. if you do not want to - blame yourself.

today's lab takes ~7 minutes to do. good luck.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

The people arguing for the points to stay have no bases for argument because if the points were removed it doesn't have any effect on their enjoyment of the lab at all. Those points cease to exist after you get them and if you already like the lab they don't impact your desire to play it one way or the other.

However if you dislike the lab and would otherwise not run it if it were totally optional those points have an enormous impact.

It's an illogical argument the 'get good' crowd are making. If GGG moved the points everyone would win, no body would have their experience diminished for it.

By this logic shouldn't we just give everyone max skill points? Not like it hurts those who grinded to 100 any, right?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Your flawed argument is that Ascension is not optional. It is. You can get to any endgame content, Core maps, Utziri, etc, without Ascending.

Cruel Malachai is not optional; he blocks your further progress. Merciless Malachai is optional; he doesn't.

Both Ascendancy classes and trade are optional. Both are also optimal. The best answer is to choose both. But the real question I'm asking is: if you could only choose one, which is more powerful?

I'm asking it rhetorically. Trade is. (In part because there is no theoretical situation wherein you or anyone else has infinite time.)

The nature of the reward makes it not optional, from a game design perspective. Ascendancy classes aren't a reward by themselves in the way items or enchantments are, they are rewards that help the player achieve those other higher quality rewards. This makes the player feel like if he doesn't have those lower level rewards (ascendancy points, passive points, skill gems and sockets) he is running with a gimped character. Ascendancy points in this case provide a benefit unique and powerful enough to separate themselves from average passive points which makes them feel uniquely important.

Completing endgame content that 95% of the people won't experience regardless if they get points or not is beside the point. (a valid point, just not relevant to this specific discussion - you're arguing the value of the points to an endgame character not whether or not they are mandatory)


@Telzen: Huzzah for reductio ad absurdum deus ex machina?

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sidtherat wrote:

truth be told - this is content that punishes certain build and certain players: glass cannon offscreening bow users that have no clue what they are doing but rest of the game simply is not threatening to them. right click to victory. lab checks their skill and their build. and kills them

players using these types of builds have two options: get better and build more balanced builds and be good or endlessly cry-a-river in hope that this - obviously deliberate - obstacle is removed

LoL look who's talking guys!! "i play in standard core and i don't care if i die or not and what my build would be, but i judge others builds and you should take notes from me" rofl. Wake up, you're in standard mode and obviously you shouldnt care much for balanced/glass/tanky builds, if you were in HC you wouldnt talking right now kid.

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sidtherat wrote:

when i check profiles of players who have issues and 'demand' it be removed it is always the same: bow build, bad flasks, little defenses whatsoever but perfectly maximized offence

What are you talking about? you check other peoples profiles and judge them, while YOU have yours in PRIVATE mode?! hahahahaha you are one of a kind Jester!

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sidtherat wrote:

get better and pass the test - lab is the test for a build and for a player - or remain where you are playing your right-click-to-victory Wharf clearer

Get better in what?! Watch my step to win this buggy traps or else im not skilled enough to do it? Are you serious?
A test for a build and for player! hahahaha, cmon someone give this Jester a price, you deserve it!

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sidtherat wrote:

today's lab takes ~7 minutes to do. good luck.

how many times you ripped from the buggy traps?


With your standards and perception, if we lab haters are 4 then the white knights are what? half a person?

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sidtherat wrote:

stories about it taking 30 minutes, stories about it requiring overleveling +20lvls or more etc have one in common - are bollocks. nonsense spread by people who got checked and failed the check

Well on this one I would disagree, the normal labyrinth can be punishing for some builds that just come together a bit later. My Trapper destroys merciless labyrinth (and I actually did it before even reaching the level), but he had a lot of issues on the first one since it just came too early for him.

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The nature of the reward makes it not optional, from a game design perspective. Ascendancy classes aren't a reward by themselves in the way items or enchantments are, they are rewards that help the player achieve those other higher quality rewards.

Technically you would be right here. However GGG didn't change the rest of the game. So everything is easily avaible without Ascendancy classes. This might change if the compensate for the higher power that ascandencies offer, right now though this is simply not true. They don't help you any more than a Shavronnes or a 6l does, and those are definitly optional and a lot harder to get.

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The people arguing for the points to stay have no bases for argument because if the points were removed it doesn't have any effect on their enjoyment of the lab at all. Those points cease to exist after you get them and if you already like the lab they don't impact your desire to play it one way or the other.

The Labyrinth actually makes those ascendancies meaningful. I honestly wouldn't enjoy my ascendancy as much as I do if I would just get them randomly during the gameplay. It would turn them into a boring quest reward that is just there to make you feel a bit better about doing stuff.

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how many times you ripped from the buggy traps?

Honestly I can't imagine dying to traps anymore... yes they are buggy but I have yet to find one that does not favor the player. I often notice that traps hit me without damaging me, which clearly is a bug, but I never had them deal unfair damage to me. I did take some damage from a burning floor due to desyncing once, which was clearly my fault by burdening my connection with a bit too much trouble. And even if his profile is private, mine isn't. I think I have 3 builds in PSC, a Hybrid Summoner (he is terrible... but... mäh, just wanted to make one :P), A Bloodmagic Spark Assassin which is pure Life and a CI trapper. All 3 have no issues with traps, the CI char is likely the easiest, since he can just wait in most traps, due to his recovery kicking in (the delay between 2 hits from one trap is so long, that ES is full again, once I noticed this, traps became really easy^^).

The sparker actually didn't do the Merc Lab for now, since I don't really get much benefit from it and since I got the items for the trapper I started playing him mostly.

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And no, you just chose the lesser of the two options. You can trade all you want, but in a theoretical universe where I have infinite time, my character's power level will be astronomically higher then yours once gear differences equalize.

Well then good look with your infinite time :P Honestly my trapper doesn't even get that much out of them. I noticed that I totally wasted 2 points on my ascendancy, because they dont work with traps (well they do a little, but it is underwhelming) and the other 2 points are cool, but far from really powerful. All I really notice from my ascendancy is the fact that you cannot get 20% chaos res reduction anywhere else. Otherwise my char is mostly the same as the one I had last league, which was mainly the same build (although he was life based with acrobatics, instead of CI).

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This is especially true since the Lab is far more punishing on ES/Hybrid ES/Life characters then on a straight Life/Regen character.

It isn't. You can check my char, it is a CI trapper. And I think I do have an Hybrid Summoner. The Summoner just uses life flasks, not that hard, but he really doesn't have issues with traps. Izaro kills him, because he sucks, but not traps.

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When such a large amount of your player base doesn't like it though (and it's very clear that it's not just here, but on Reddit too), and you've tied character progression to it, then it becomes a problem.

A large amount of players didnt enjoy Oversoul when it was added. A large amount of people didn't enjoy Act III when it was added. A large amount of people didn't enjoy Dominus when he was added. A large amount of people didn't enjoy the Merveil rework. And a large amount of people didn't enjoy Malachai when he was added. You know what? The difference was that all those were not optional. But they got used to it. Nobody really cares about the new Merveil or Dominus anymore, they are just there. And still Cruel Dominus was one of the most noticable roadblock for people for quite some time. He actually kept a lot of people trapped in cruel... something Ascendancies will not do.

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sidtherat wrote:

30%? 40%? maybe 99%? numbers pulled out of you know where

I said it was my guess. But, you can't resist the opportunity to be rude and insulting, can you?

I also note that my post was asserting that the issue was what percent of the player base does not like the labyrinth. I was trying to encourage you and others to give their own opinion on what percentage it actually is. Can we at least agree that the real issue is what percent like the labyrinth? You don't have any opinion on that except for your previous assertion of four or five players?

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sidtherat wrote:

truth be told - this is content that punishes certain build and certain players: glass cannon offscreening bow users that have no clue what they are doing but rest of the game simply is not threatening to them. right click to victory. lab checks their skill and their build. and kills them

players using these types of builds have two options: get better and build more balanced builds and be good or endlessly cry-a-river in hope that this - obviously deliberate - obstacle is removed

when i check profiles of players who have issues and 'demand' it be removed it is always the same: bow build, bad flasks, little defenses whatsoever but perfectly maximized offence

stories about it taking 30 minutes, stories about it requiring overleveling +20lvls or more etc have one in common - are bollocks. nonsense spread by people who got checked and failed the check

get better and pass the test - lab is the test for a build and for a player - or remain where you are playing your right-click-to-victory Wharf clearer

You keep trying to change the subject to this tangential issue. The issue is that labyrinth is not fun for many players. For the most part it has nothing to do with skill and only a little to do with the build, THE ISSUE IS THAT THE LABYRINTH IS NOT FUN for many players. Emphasis added since you continually keep going off on this same tangential issue.

Here, I'll repeat it again since you seem to have some kind of strange inability to understand. THE ISSUE IS THAT THE LABYRINTH IS NOT FUN.

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sidtherat wrote:

and yes - 5 lab haters: you, guy youve quoted and a pair of 'i quit' (yet their achievement counters go up) gentlemen + one who really quit)

It looks like there might be some kind of rational thought behind your statement but I'm not really sure what it is.

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sidtherat wrote:

you might not like it but man up and work for your reward. if you cannot - get better. if you do not want to - blame yourself.

today's lab takes ~7 minutes to do. good luck.

I play games for fun. The labyrinth is not fun. I've decided to play another game instead since the labyrinth is not optional. I loved playing PoE and hope that GGG provides another way to get ascendancy points in the future and then perhaps I'll return to playing PoE. Although I have done a few daily missions and may even play some PoE in group play from time to time.

Your references to "Man up" and "blame" is just more insulting drivel from you that is irrelevant to the conversation. I know that it is very upsetting to you that some people don't like the labyrinth. I really do think though that if you tried harder to be friendly with people then you would be a happier person.