SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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sidtherat wrote:

30%? 40%? maybe 99%? numbers pulled out of you know where

truth be told - this is content that punishes certain build and certain players: glass cannon offscreening bow users that have no clue what they are doing but rest of the game simply is not threatening to them. right click to victory. lab checks their skill and their build. and kills them

players using these types of builds have two options: get better and build more balanced builds and be good or endlessly cry-a-river in hope that this - obviously deliberate - obstacle is removed

I am glass cannon build and I really like lab and Izaro.
He can one shot me, but I can evade everything he throws at me manualy. Thats a good skill-check IMO. I am actualy enjoying more something that punish me for bad player skill (positioning, using of enviroment, refleks, reading enemy moves) rather than gear and build.

Many people here stand still and wonder why they die, or run on trap after trap and die even with tanks (%EHP FTW).

When I looked at stats, that most people die before Izaro I was shocked. The only strong thing there is Izaro, I never died in lab to something else and I am glass cannon.

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herflik wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

30%? 40%? maybe 99%? numbers pulled out of you know where

truth be told - this is content that punishes certain build and certain players: glass cannon offscreening bow users that have no clue what they are doing but rest of the game simply is not threatening to them. right click to victory. lab checks their skill and their build. and kills them

players using these types of builds have two options: get better and build more balanced builds and be good or endlessly cry-a-river in hope that this - obviously deliberate - obstacle is removed

I am glass cannon build and I really like lab and Izaro.
He can one shot me, but I can evade everything he throws at me manualy. Thats a good skill-check IMO. I am actualy enjoying more something that punish me for bad player skill (positioning, using of enviroment, refleks, reading enemy moves) rather than gear and build.

Many people here stand still and wonder why they die, or run on trap after trap and die even with tanks (%EHP FTW).

When I looked at stats, that most people die before Izaro I was shocked. The only strong thing there is Izaro, I never died in lab to something else and I am glass cannon.

It looks like GGG failed in your case then? At least according to sidtherat, your glass cannon was supposed to be "weeded out" by the labyrinth. LOL

but he knows what he is doing - so why weed him out? he has little problem with this content

you however have slight issues with reading - check what i wrote please

The labyrinth favours glasscannon builds. Sid has no idea what he is talking about. Just ignore him.

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Emphasy wrote:

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The nature of the reward makes it not optional, from a game design perspective. Ascendancy classes aren't a reward by themselves in the way items or enchantments are, they are rewards that help the player achieve those other higher quality rewards.

Technically you would be right here. However GGG didn't change the rest of the game. So everything is easily avaible without Ascendancy classes. This might change if the compensate for the higher power that ascandencies offer, right now though this is simply not true. They don't help you any more than a Shavronnes or a 6l does, and those are definitly optional and a lot harder to get.

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The people arguing for the points to stay have no bases for argument because if the points were removed it doesn't have any effect on their enjoyment of the lab at all. Those points cease to exist after you get them and if you already like the lab they don't impact your desire to play it one way or the other.

The Labyrinth actually makes those ascendancies meaningful. I honestly wouldn't enjoy my ascendancy as much as I do if I would just get them randomly during the gameplay. It would turn them into a boring quest reward that is just there to make you feel a bit better about doing stuff.

In regards to your first point:

They don't need to compensate for ascendancy points because they don't have a large enough impact. Again, you're making a relative comparison of value which doesn't define it's absolute value. That value is defined by where it is categorized in the 'reward pyramid', if you will. This distinction is important because rewards of a given level aren't expected to perform the same functions or be able to compete with rewards from another level. And the higher you go on the pyramid the more rarefied and optional they become, you're shavs and 6l for example are higher level. Ascendancy points feeling optional due to their low relative worth (from an endgame character's perspective for example) is an indication to people who don't think about reward structures in this manner that their impact is low (compared to the higher level rewards they act on, they still feel important to the character building process) and therefore low on the pyramid reward structure. But this is where the disconnect and dissatisfaction with the ascendancy points being gated behind the lab comes in - people expect to have much easier access to rewards that are lower on the pyramid and harder access as the reward level increases. GGG has broken this design rule by gating a low level reward behind comparatively hard content and people feel this as off and wrong.

So this brings me to your second point:

Totally agree. They need to move them to something challenging enough so that feeling of having earned something of value remains intact. Something like a challenging side quest area in act 4 similar to the library in act 3 could be enough. This would bring the expectation of difficulty back in line with the reward agian.

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Totally agree. They need to move them to something challenging enough so that feeling of having earned something of value remains intact. Something like a challenging side quest area in act 4 similar to the library in act 3 could be enough. This would bring the expectation of difficulty back in line with the reward agian.

You mean a challanging side quest area like the labyrinth?

I did beat Malachai before he got nerfed in normal. He killed me 28 times. I also did beat the Oversoul when she was first implemented and it took only 27 lifes (Although she was slightly more nimble than now). But I did not feel any form of accomplishment. When I managed to get my Ascendacies this feeling was there, because it was content I couldn't just suicide through.

The labyrinth isn't really hard. In Merciless it is easier than A4. I might just for fun try to beat normal Labyrinth controlling my character with my feet, because the traps aren't really challanging. They need a bit of observation and concentration and thats it. And I would say that the ascendancies are at least as powerful as a 6l or a Shavronnes. I basically get 20% more damage or even more, that is about what a support gem gives you and I get 100 ES and a nice gimmick by keeping my ES recovery active after taking damage, which sounded more useful than it was.

So considering the power an ascendancy offers the labyrinth is perfectly reasonable in difficulty. It is easy content for some final character progression.

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Pyrokar wrote:

The labyrinth favours glasscannon builds. Sid has no idea what he is talking about. Just ignore him.

sure buddy, sure

lab favours people who know what they are doing - glass cannon or not. if you can survive Izi with glass cannon - go for it. most players cannot do that. they can build the cannon but the glass is so brittle it breaks somewhere on the way to Izi. good players will manage regardless of a build

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Emphasy wrote:

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Totally agree. They need to move them to something challenging enough so that feeling of having earned something of value remains intact. Something like a challenging side quest area in act 4 similar to the library in act 3 could be enough. This would bring the expectation of difficulty back in line with the reward agian.

You mean a challanging side quest area like the labyrinth?

I did beat Malachai before he got nerfed in normal. He killed me 28 times. I also did beat the Oversoul when she was first implemented and it took only 27 lifes (Although she was slightly more nimble than now). But I did not feel any form of accomplishment. When I managed to get my Ascendacies this feeling was there, because it was content I couldn't just suicide through.

The labyrinth isn't really hard. In Merciless it is easier than A4. I might just for fun try to beat normal Labyrinth controlling my character with my feet, because the traps aren't really challanging. They need a bit of observation and concentration and thats it. And I would say that the ascendancies are at least as powerful as a 6l or a Shavronnes. I basically get 20% more damage or even more, that is about what a support gem gives you and I get 100 ES and a nice gimmick by keeping my ES recovery active after taking damage, which sounded more useful than it was.

So considering the power an ascendancy offers the labyrinth is perfectly reasonable in difficulty. It is easy content for some final character progression.

No, something less challenging.

BUT you did hit the nail on the head with what you said. The real problem here is perceived difficulty. What one person considers easy for whatever reason a whole shit ton of other people might find too difficult for the reward.

The problem is the people who don't find it too difficult are trying to force their opinion on those that do. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of moving them from the lab because it's a low level reward that should be gated behind a more accessible, lower level of difficulty and moving them won't have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab while at the same time allowing those who don't enjoy it to not feel required to run it.

Edit: The points are easy to get for endgame characters because it's not very important to them, again because the points are low on the reward pyramid I mentioned earlier.

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sidtherat wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

The labyrinth favours glasscannon builds. Sid has no idea what he is talking about. Just ignore him.

sure buddy, sure

lab favours people who know what they are doing - glass cannon or not. if you can survive Izi with glass cannon - go for it. most players cannot do that. they can build the cannon but the glass is so brittle it breaks somewhere on the way to Izi. good players will manage regardless of a build

Ah, so you agree that you are wrong and you have no idea what you are talking about.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

No, something less challenging.

BUT you did hit the nail on the head with what you said. The real problem here is perceived difficulty. What one person considers easy for whatever reason a whole shit ton of other people might find too difficult for the reward.

The problem is the people who don't find it too difficult are trying to force their opinion on those that do. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of moving them from the lab because it's a low level reward that should be gated behind a more accessible, lower level of difficulty and moving them won't have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab while at the same time allowing those who don't enjoy it to not feel required to run it.

Why couldn't say this then:

"The problem is the people who find it too difficult/boring are trying to force their opinion on those that don't. The reasons for either position doesn't really matter, they're both right!

So that's why logically I must take the position of not moving them from the lab because it's a high level reward that should be gated behind a less accessible, hard level of difficulty and moving them would have an adverse effect on those who enjoy the lab making it less rewarding/pointless to do."

Honestly, I think people should adapt at this point. There are some complaints that are valid (performance issues, overly long, punishing area) but I don't expect GGG to puts the points outside the labyrinth, but rather adapt the labyrinth to not waste content (moving points in normal and cruel would basically make the labyrinth extremely inefficient to run). Expect a compromise, not a capitulation.