SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Defending the lab because its a solid piece of content that doesn't need watered down because people are crying over it. It also doesn't need a massive amount of dev time to be wasted in order to address and issue you have with it. When it comes down to it Chris said it the best when he said its ok to have decisive content in the game that you don't necessarily want to do, but do it because of the rewards.

You meant to say divisive, not decisive.

Christ was wrong on both counts, a fact I suspect he is coming to realize, though I haven't spoken with him recently.

The following applies not just to PoE, by the way:

1. Any game with severely controversial material creates a poisonous atmosphere for the community, whose members resort to infighting rather than helping each other get through the new material. This is anathema for any free-to-play game, which rely heavily on word-of-mouth to generate new customers and additional revenue.

2. Designing content players don't want to play but play anyhow just to get the rewards changes the entire dynamic of a game, more fundamentally than even the arguments put forth about the new gameplay introduced by traps. Such designs have been profitable for some game creators in the past, I don't deny it! Zynga, for example. And Blizzard South. And many other low-quality game makers. This is classic MMORPG carrot-and-stick design. It is also very different from what PoE has been until now. It is impossible for me to stay silent when any aspect of the game follows this philosophy.

Edit: Want to fix that typo... am about to fix it... nah. It's too hilarious to fix.

Yes spell check corrected it incorrectly, I typically type fast and just spell check so :/


1) See this is where you are wrong, there have been a few lab complaint threads that really have lead to discussion on how to beat the various encounters and how to navigate the lab in general, I can remember such a post where I went out of the way to show the user they can navigate the lab using the podium things by each door, I further explained various mechanics on how he can get harder, but also give more rewards. Any single piece of content that people view as required will fall under this idea that it should be something they've already essentially seen\done, yet that doesn't actually work when you are trying to make a game, because adding additional content that is exactly like other content or too similar means that it has the appearance of being lazy or not putting forth enough effort to make new content.

a) the revenue of this game is likely split up 40% supporter packs 60% random purchases, of course this number I just pulled out of my ass, but regardless of the actual breakdown it really doesn't matter. You can't sway the game design one way or another because you or anyone else is dissatisfied with the content, as stated so many times before watering down the content for the 20% or whatever the amount of dissatisfied people affects the WHOLE playerbase. So while you might not get friends to play the game the other 4\5 people will with likely at least 1\5 being on the extreme that the game doesn't need to be watered down. So players like myself essentially even out the players like yourself when it comes to "money", statistically speaking I've seen more free or low end supporters complain about this, then high end supporters, following that same pattern would indicate that GGG would actually be losing money by watering down the content, not gaining it by doing a change.

2) They didn't design the content knowing players wouldn't enjoy the gameplay. Despite all of the arugements made about various things that could be changed in the lab itself, many people are thinking the only solution is a massive change. Sorry to say that likely won't happen, either you accept these terms and play on or you constantly bump a topic and have a list of 20+ shitty ideas, like OP has done here. The only thing different about this content is that it really isn't "optional" despite being able to do basically everything in the game without the AC points.

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See this is where you are wrong. You view the game as heading in the right direction because of the "traps" So its nothing more then your opinion and the bully brigade troll here that the "whole direction" of the game is apparently heading the right way.

I don't see the game heading in the right direction because of traps, the traps don't matter much like most of the post in this thread, ultimately they will achieve nothing because its a cluttered clusterfuck of basically useless feedback\information. I believe the game design in general is ok because GGG is willing to follow the same principle of design as they originally sought out to do, which is create a game they would enjoy and share with us. As soon as you have to change the game design to cater to a "playerbase" instead of a design where you do basically what you please, you change the dynamic of the game in a very very bad way. This isn't a typical game and as such it doesn't need to follow the "typical" rules that other game devs, like blizzard are forced to follow, as soon as you and others recognize this you will stop with the pointless arguements and focus on the issue at hand.


The funny thing is that I support some improvements to be made to the lab, but the direction OP and others take in this thread makes it impossible for those to be the focus of the discussion, instead it branches off to all these irrelevant post that really won't accomplish anything.

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

See this is where you are wrong. You view the game as heading in the wrong direction because of the "traps" So its nothing more then your opinion and some people complaining here that the "whole direction" of the game is apparently heading the wrong way.

See this is where you are wrong. You view the game as heading in the right direction because of the "traps" So its nothing more then your opinion and the bully brigade troll here that the "whole direction" of the game is apparently heading the right way.

See this is where you are right. You view the post as heading in the wrong direction because of the "nonsense" So its nothing more then whiteknighting and the bully brigade troll here that the "whole direction" of the game is apparently heading the right way.

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goetzjam wrote:

You can't sway the game design one way or another because you or anyone else is dissatisfied with the content, as stated so many times before watering down the content for the 20% or whatever the amount of dissatisfied people affects the WHOLE playerbase. So while you might not get friends to play the game the other 4\5 people will with likely at least 1\5 being on the extreme that the game doesn't need to be watered down. So players like myself essentially even out the players like yourself when it comes to "money", statistically speaking I've seen more free or low end supporters complain about this, then high end supporters, following that same pattern would indicate that GGG would actually be losing money by watering down the content, not gaining it by doing a change.

So lets assume we have 20% who really hate the lab and it's trap gameplay. Now you say there are 20% on the other side, who like the lab. Lets just assume this percentages are right. The other 60% in between don't care and just play the game as it is (no matter if the change the lab or not).

Now lets assume the following two scenarios:

1. GGG decided that players have to go through the lab if they want to ascendend. So they won't change anything at all about the lab.

2. GGG decided that the complaints about the lab are reasonable and they give players an alternative way to get the AC points besides the normal lab. Normal lab stays untouched.


Which scenario will have more impact on the financial income for GGG? In the first scenario, the people who hate the lab will probably lose interest in the game and will stop playing it, or at least not pay for it anymore. In the second scenario though, those 20% lab-haters will be happy. But will the lab-lovers be unhappy? They can still play their lab in the normal way and get their AC points. So nothing will have changed for them (except that they probably can't offer lab runs for high prices anymore). So do you think the 20% lab-lovers will leave poe or not pay anymore? I highly doubt it, because GGG just introduced an alternative way to get AC points without altering the original lab.

All in all, it would be better for GGG to try to fit the taste of lab-haters and lab-lovers and not just stick with the current lab. There's practically no reason to not try to make the lab-haters also happy, except that it would require some development time (depending on the complexity of the alternative way).

Also we don't really know if the other 60% are also "happy" with the lab. I think many play it just for the AC points and never touch it again afterwards, so it's very likely that there are many who really don't like the content and only a few vocal ones who really hate it.

Ace


The argument there is pointless because you don't consider the total satisfaction of people like me as a factor in your consideration.

Lets say we follow example 1:

If they follow 1, the "same" people will complain until the end of time or until GGG just says what they should have said, instead of beating around the bush, which is we have no plans now or in the near future to change AC points from being in the lab. Had he said that, there really wouldn't even be a need for this discussion because GGG would just wait it out, like they are now to re-evaluate it until the next major expansion.


Lets say we follow example 2:

People like OP or people that don't enjoy or want anything to do with the lab are given their method to get AC points (basically for nothing). This affects players like myself because the content of the game is being changed for casual players and the design is being compromised in order to "appeal to the masses". GGG never intended to appeal to the masses, ever. Nor do they have to, the business model they have actually caters further to less people that spend more, then more people that spend less. With that statement being said, it can affect them negatively if I'm not satisfied (or others like me) because we would see the game as no longer following it's roots and compromising game quality, for playing quantity. Which means no large supporter packs for me, only the $50-60 ones or none at all.



There are extremes on both instances, where someone like yourself might be dissatisfied with the lab, but still play the game, even OP plays the game still, so as long as players that dislike the lab are still willing to play the game, that means it isn't as big of an issue as you or OP make it out to be, it is essentially no different then the daily "trade sucks" threads on reddit.

You, OP and many others that might dislike the lab still play the game and buy supporter packs it seems, I however won't be doing that if they remove AC or offer AC points anywhere but the lab. I support trying to make the lab more enjoyable for those that dislike it, but the amount of dev time required to do such might be "too much". Which is just a further indication that offering AC outside of the lab would essentially be GGG "being lazy" instead of doing an adjustment that is correct or in line with the original design pitched to us.

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goetzjam wrote:

Lets say we follow example 1:

If they follow 1, the "same" people will complain until the end of time or until GGG just says what they should have said, instead of beating around the bush, which is we have no plans now or in the near future to change AC points from being in the lab. Had he said that, there really wouldn't even be a need for this discussion because GGG would just wait it out, like they are now to re-evaluate it until the next major expansion.

We don't know if GGG works on any changes or alternatives until they get released (if ever). When they introduced the permanent allocation loot, people were discussing this stuff until it got released and GGG never gave a hint that it will actually come. So all this discussion can still be very helpful in order to find a solution and if GGG decides to use any of the suggestion here (or developing there own solution), we will never know it until the actual release.

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goetzjam wrote:

Lets say we follow example 2:

People like OP or people that don't enjoy or want anything to do with the lab are given their method to get AC points (basically for nothing). This affects players like myself because the content of the game is being changed for casual players and the design is being compromised in order to "appeal to the masses". GGG never intended to appeal to the masses, ever. Nor do they have to, the business model they have actually caters further to less people that spend more, then more people that spend less. With that statement being said, it can affect them negatively if I'm not satisfied (or others like me) because we would see the game as no longer following it's roots and compromising game quality, for playing quantity. Which means no large supporter packs for me, only the $50-60 ones or none at all.

Wait: How would an ALTERNATIVE way to get AC points affact YOUR gameplay experience? Alternative means, that the normal lab stays untouched and you can still play it if it makes you feel more "hardcore". People discussed probably a half year over if items should stay free4all or if GGG should introduce some kind of permanent allocation. People who were against perm allocation gave the same arguments as you like "It changes my gameplay experience". But GGG still decided to implement the perm allocation as an optional feature (like the alternative lab way with more monsters and less tra rooms). And today? No one complains about perm allocation and 99% of the existing parties actually use it. Funny how much flame the pro "perm allocation" people had to endure and in the end, it made more people happy than unhappy.

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goetzjam wrote:

There are extremes on both instances, where someone like yourself might be dissatisfied with the lab, but still play the game, even OP plays the game still, so as long as players that dislike the lab are still willing to play the game, that means it isn't as big of an issue as you or OP make it out to be, it is essentially no different then the daily "trade sucks" threads on reddit.

You, OP and many others that might dislike the lab still play the game and buy supporter packs it seems, I however won't be doing that if they remove AC or offer AC points anywhere but the lab. I support trying to make the lab more enjoyable for those that dislike it, but the amount of dev time required to do such might be "too much". Which is just a further indication that offering AC outside of the lab would essentially be GGG "being lazy" instead of doing an adjustment that is correct or in line with the original design pitched to us.

And this makes you illogical on so many levels. Are you such a tryhard who needs to feel superior to others in a PvE based game to love seeing other people suffer with some content?

You are right that PoE is developed for a minor playerbase who loves hardcore games like Diablo. This game was always treated as the unofficial Diablo 2 successor and people played it because it took everything from Diablo 2 and made those features even better "like auto-refilling potions, more customization options etc. etc.). The customization and optimization of your character is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in PoE. It's not the next super ubber boss or new maps. It's always about more options for your characters. More skills, more nodes, more AC points, more passive skill points, more unique items etc. etc. People love especially this stuff. And the AC points have such a huge influence, that they are not optional. Yes, you can play the game without them, but many builds are based on AC points and you NEED these nodes for endgame maps if you want to be competetive when it comes to clear speed. That automatically means GGG forces the player to get these AC points, which sadly are behind the labyrinth. People who play this game for many years now learned to love PoE for it's deep character customization and always trying to get more tankiness and damage out of your build and make your clear speed even better. Three-Shotting certain bosses just felt great with the right build. Yes, some builds mean you can faceroll the PoE content, but what's so bad about that? It's a god dam PvE game! So why force the player to play an entire different game within PoE? Why does GGG force player to learn trap rooms, learn how to dodge them or predict their sequences and still die very fast if you have a terrible internet connection? Many players find this boring. Most players just want to use their active skills to deal damage and clear maps, not fiddling around with traps. It's just boring and for some more or less impossible to play thanks to connection issues. For people who think it's boring or if they have techical issues, there needs to be an alternative method to get AC points. THose who have fun, can still play the normal lab and it doesn't make ANY sense to start hating PoE if they add alternative ways to comfort other players. It should always be the goal to make most of your CORE-playerbase happy! Many of those who play this game practically since the beginning do not like the lab and those people did a great part themselves to make PoE successful, so GGG should try to make at least these gamers happy too. Like they did with perm allocation of items.

Comparing AC points to perm allocation is a failed comparison try again.

Honestly if they did remove AP from the lab, lab would still be relevant, at least merciless and especially uber for the enchants and how rewarding uber is. This would satisfy most parties, except for certain top eliters.

If anything, uber lab is way above the other endgame options for farming and way more accessible than uber atziri. Rewards should be nerfed or the other endgame options should be buffed to compete with uber lab, although 2.4 appears to focus on endgame so perhaps that'll be taken care of..

Personally for me, lab is just ok, but it gets boring fast especially if you like to reroll many characters. I don't have much motivation to do uber lab as it requires a specific build for lazy farming and those last two AP points don't offer too much except for certain builds like crit poison bleed assassin.

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goetzjam wrote:

Comparing AC points to perm allocation is a failed comparison try again.

Funnily enough, the people used the same arguments as you did "If GGG implements this, it will be a different game for me". Still, no one is complaining today. And how is it different when they add an alternative way to the lab without altering the original one? How would this effect your gameplay experience?

It wouldn't and that's the point.