SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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vio wrote:

i didn't see it mentioned here but are you aware that the next patch will nerf the lab?

from the patch notes sneak review:

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chris wrote:

Progress through the Trials of Ascendancy is now shared between all your characters in the league.

thank you for trying to kill any parts of the game that require skill and primitive forms of intelligence.

I cant, but only assume you have no clue what has been suggested in the opening post or you simply havent read it. The trial rework was asked from everybody unanimously in the forums/reddit/twitch/youtube, since according to basically everyone doing them more than one time per league served absolutely nothing, because of their tutorial role. It only made the whole ordeal even more boring than it already was. And that is coming from players who actually liked the labyrinth too.

Also please before making extreme comments understand that im all for keeping the labyrinth EXACTLY as it is. Ascendancy points are a comppletely different matter though. Take care.

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goetzjam wrote:

OP you really need to update these or get more feedback on the 4th labrinth and if people think it matters very much or very little.


I feel like this thread is slightly out of date due to the lab literally changing the context of the argument a bit.

Real life stuff and work plus alpha testing before the prophecy release kept me from updating and posting here in a more serious level. I will offcourse try to update, though i believe the "labyrinth rework ideas" (spoiler) apply as they are since they do not mess with the system but rather "enhance/upgrade" it. Ofcourse the same can NOT be told for the "alternative ascension methods" some of which actually require a serious rethinking. Unfortunately until prophecy is released i cant update those while taking into account the "uber lab" cause i might unknowingly and certainly unwillingly go against the alpha TOS.

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Pyrokar wrote:

How about we continue the thread this way? Say what alternative method of ascending we'd like and also give a reason why. Feel free to say that you are against all suggestions as well, while also providing a proper reason. Maybe put the aforementioned in the OP or in each post so that subsequent posters know what to do.

I am fine with all ascending methods but prefer method IV, since it provides a reason to kill merc malachai and also hint to new players that they missed out on a lot of content.

Yeah indeed, the later half and more constructive part of the thread as a whole took that direction, though unfortunately heated discussion still happens and derails it. Thats a good way to analyze, discuss already suggested ideas but also a way for people to come up with new ones. So yes definately a good one.


Personally id like to see a complete removal of Ascendancy Points from anything but leveling. So at levels 40-60-80-90 you get the points. Its simple and its true the rest of the game and content that GGG released. Similar to Jewel sockets that when introduced were available to all and true to optional content like Atziri or Masters. I do believe though that this will find many obstacles in its way.

So the second best for me is a combinations of ideas. More specifically (IV) and (VI) from Alternative Ascension Methods spoiler and (1) from Labyrinth Rework Ideas spoiler. I cant but see this specific combination as the best possible solution. For those not familiar :

- Ascendancy Points are awarded from a standalone fight with Izaro. To gain access to the fight players must first defeat Malachai in the same difficulty, and be 90 level for the endgame Izaro. Players face him in 3 stages but without having to run the labyrinth and the trials beforehand. He awards nothing but Ascendancy Points. Loot, enchantments, treasure keys are all removed for the specific fight. Players cannot party in those fights.

- New currency : Ascendancy Orb. Rarity same as divines can drop only in 70+ maps. Endgame Labyrinth Izaro has 100% chance to drop 1 (max). Izaro from other difficulties do not drop it. It can work as 1 ascendancy point respec too. One Ascendancy Orb gives one Ascendancy Point.

- The traps in the labyrinth and the trials can now be turned off/be deactivated. Every trap room has a puzzle that leads to a crank, solving the puzzle would allow you to use the crank and thus deactivate the traps in the room. With this feature we give a slower and more immersing gameplay to run the labyrinth, a playstyle much closer to those of classic RPGs.


Advantages : Gives malachai a purpose, ascendancy orb incentivizes even more lab runners, while the last one gives a more classic RPG style and feeling.

Im curious what people believe is the right direction. As always i hope i see more suggestions and ideas and constructive feedback. Updates including "uber lab" (from me) will come after the prophecy release.

EDIT:
@Turtledove, most alternative ways to ascend keep labyrinth as it is, except I and III (though both can be viable while also keeping the labyrinth as it is so ill change that now). Labyrinth rework ideas just enhance the labyrinth as it is now.

The seperation of the ideas was done because they tickle different issues. And its much more clear now. It also promotes a combination of both categories since they can both enhance the labyrinth/ascending experience in different ways while keeping things as they are now too.

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goetzjam wrote:

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gathor wrote:

Method IV would be the best for me. Reason to see Merc Malachai and fight Izaro outside the lab (I like the fight). Get the points and feel that you truly completed the game story mode...for now that is heh.

What about the last 2 points being added in the "map level" lab?

OP you really need to update these or get more feedback on the 4th labrinth and if people think it matters very much or very little.


I feel like this thread is slightly out of date due to the lab literally changing the context of the argument a bit.

As much as I dislike the lab I think map one should stay as it is (as it will be). Those 2 extra points will be the pinnacle of most builds, the last piece of the puzzle that makes the build truly Ascend. I for one plan my builds with 6 points as not sure at all if I will manage map lab.

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gathor wrote:

As much as I dislike the lab I think map one should stay as it is (as it will be). Those 2 extra points will be the pinnacle of most builds, the last piece of the puzzle that makes the build truly Ascend. I for one plan my builds with 6 points as not sure at all if I will manage map lab.

I tend to agree with this view. My hesitation is that we have not yet seen what level to expect the fourth ascension? If the typical level to ascend for the fourth time is level 95 then it isn't going to matter much at all. However, if the typical level to the fourth ascension is 75 then it would be a much bigger deal. I don't think that we currently have sufficient information to know which end of the spectrum it will land on.

EDIT: The 2.03 patch notes make it clear that there is much being done to compensate for the "power creep" caused by ascendancy points. I suspect that the fourth set of ascendancy points are included in that compensation.

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Regulator wrote:

The seperation of the ideas was done because they tickle different issues.

I'm all in favor of tickling issues separately. ;)

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tryhardgg wrote:

I just hate the lab .

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ShaUrley wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

The seperation of the ideas was done because they tickle different issues.

I'm all in favor of tickling issues separately. ;)

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Regulator wrote:

... though unfortunately heated discussion still happens and derails it....

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Feel free to say I'm disingenuous for taking your words hyper-literally, but I'm glad you finally spelled it out.

In your mind, simple discussion, in which 'heated' means two or more opposing sides, is a derail; anything not fully supporting your initial premises, from the ground up, is a derail.

That certainly explains a lot.

For all the talk 'your side' has said about this being the feedback and suggestions forum, I'd say I agree, but this means the above doesn't strictly apply. Note it IS called 'feedback and suggestions' and not 'various blogs and manifestos with echo chambers of agreement'.

Here's an exhibit A from page 102:

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dickhole_mcghee wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

... Its a common joke around here, but if they implemented a rhoa-racing event that gated passives, wouldnt that part of the game be bastardized poe? ARPG + racer? would you find that acceptable?

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Not speaking for Scrotie, but my answer is: Yes.

Go on.

This next step is crucial.

I'll give you infinite chances to proceed next with this simple yet important step.



p.s. loool that post I just made was deleted, asking if goetz was banned for something ITT. you guys are going down swinging, i'll give u that

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Yep, I hate it here too.

Just spent the whole evening doing 18 trials and the three labs to get a character ready for the update. Got killed by traps in the 2nd last room of the Merciless lab. It was a combination of dart traps and roombas and they were desynced. Pushed flask too late.

This character is spoilt now. /deaths = 1

Yes, when I have a spotty connection ( either on my end or ggg's) I hate the lab more than 10 hitlers, even though i'm apparently in the 'lab lover' camp based on this thread. I think the two should be separate yet related issues, but I could be wrong.

I think it is a common theme for players to hate dying to traps worse than they hate dying to monsters. That is for a number of reasons. I think it might be useful for getting a high level view for the theme of this thread if we could investigate why this is in a bit more detail. If any others agree then let me start off by making a list in my approximate order of importance. I encourage others to comment, change, add, and present alternatives.

1. Least of not is the fact that PoE is an ARPG where the fun game play we all love is killing monsters not trap game play.

2. Building for trap game play is stupid in an ARPG where we want to build in order to kill monsters.

3. Don't like trap game play anyway so already in a bad mood before dying. This is like the opposite of my free solitaire on my iPhone. When I win then they switch to a full screen advertisement for other apps, knowing that people in general will be in a better mood if they just won and are less likely to rage quit the solitaire game because of an ad if they just won.

4. We expect to die from monsters not traps. Perhaps in this same point is we're more used to dying from monsters?

Well mr. turtledove, since you wanted another high level perspective here it is:

It's really hard to die in this game nowadays, especially in hardcore. Except for the usual suspects, like elemental bearers, violatiles and all the bosses that just kill you in one hit (which ofcourse most people avoid), what's there left to kill you? Disconnections and lagspikes.

If you want PoE to be a game you watch on tv or youtube or whatever, how can you do that if you provide players with overpowered skills and mechanics, like ascendancy classes, in each and every new league, making your players so strong that they barely die anymore? Well, you better add some pseudo skill mechanic that negates all the defencive choices your players made so that they can start dying to ingame elements again, because regular monsters aren't gonna cut it anymore.

And since we already saw the new "end-game" lab with more "skill" based challenges like pushing the boxes until you hit the switch or the "be ranged or gtfo trap" it is safe to assume that GGG has given up on trying to kill us with monsters. They don't want us to tank a monster and kill it in five hits (which might be like 0,5-2 seconds for most builds), because that would be somehow too difficult or boring...

I really hope GGG decides to scrap all this stupid nonesense and buff monsters' life values instead. Are the new-super-awesome-skill using monsters gonna be a hard enough challenge to die in? I seriously doubt it, but let's hope that i am wrong. The devs took a wrong turn by trying to challenge us with traps and i hope they reconsider.