Labyrinth,the worst content ever made in POE?

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

How its even possible these titles to be compared to path of exile? Seriously like wtf? All the games mentioned have an adventure element that poe never had. And there is actually no problem to have it now (or is there?), its good for a company to experiment, but WHY THE FUCK force it to so many people? If you are going to put experimental content at least do NOT implement it in the most abnoxious way possible, do not restrict/prevent so many players enjoying something so important to character customization.

All are action games, the people playing those don't seem to mind. I wonder why is not a problem, but people here seem to hate it so much. When stopping for a few seconds to avoid stuff become boring?

So from the whole quote you deducted that? Seriously take off the blindfolds, dont read things that do not exist and dont come to unreasonable conclusions. I said and i repeat again "all the games mentioned have an adventure element that poe never had", ofcourse i know they are action games but what i said still stands true doesnt it? PoE never had that adventure element those games have, and as i continued im ok with PoE experimenting with those elements, but GATING content important to character optimization, calling it "OPTIONAL" in an ARPG and FORCING players to do it is the issue here. But ofcourse since you had no argument here you selected to repeat something vague without any sense. Well done, you got a promotion in the white knighood?

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NeroNoah wrote:

If some people don't want to see the game converted to Super Mario/Prince of Persia/Tomb Raider, I don't want it to be converted to Call of Duty.

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Regulator wrote:

So its okay to bastardize the game and force the atrocity to the players? Labyrinth being completely optional (no AC gating) would appeal to you and the rest white knights and bots, that consider it a skill based challenge/content (ha!) while also keeping the rest of the playerbase engaged with the new Classes. Take off the blindfolds.

You are obsessed with purity in the genre. Your bastardization is my diversification (also, traps are not new to ARPGs anyway). Stop talking for all the playerbase, or even for a majority.

The same case as before, without clarification it seems that you have no problem if the game converts to super mario or prince of persia. You want to use sweet talk and disguise things behind pretty and fancy words thats fine with me, but adding something that wasnt there that clearly does not resemble anything before in PoE is called bastardization, call it diversification it has the same result : alienating many players who have supported PoE for what it was - a fun free time experience not a chore to do after work.

Im not even going to quote the last part of your post cause you seem to be way too confused, countering arguments is hard when someone wears blinders.

PoE should definately not be the way we say, we are suggesting a middle solution something that stands true to what PoE was but still experiments with new content. We dont want the labyrinth to go away, let it stay, but why FORCE players to do it when they clearly dislike the playstyle? Because gating AC behind it does exactly that thing it FORCES people to complete an "optional". I never claimed to speak for the majority of the playerbase, but i know i speak for a big chunk of it. Can the white knights say the same?


P.S. : The post is unusually personal for my standards (due to many quotes), but please take no offense im not attacking anyone in person. Actually im just blatantly rebutting for the millionth time the other side. Also if the going-to-be-responces have the same low quality of random nonsensical unthought arguments siimilar to the very recent ones spare yourselves the humiliation, its clear white knights cant debate

P.P.S. : For those who make assumptions out of thin air, i have done quite few merci lab runs for the challenge (only missing aura and totem atm), and i still feel this way about it, because i do not enjoy the obviously different playstyle and i hate the fact that AC are gated behind it. But the labyrinth can appeal to so many people without having AC behind it, reworking enchantments alone could serve labyrinth's purpose. Seriously if you cant honestly see this i give up. You choose to be ignorant.

P.P.P.S. : It comes down to some questions only GGG knows the answers: Why gate AC? Why such a radical change to the game's philosphy? Why forcing obviously different, experimental, pseudo-optional content to players? Why not keep both side satisfied? Does that much controversy and divisive content do good to the game?


Ive said it in the past, if this stays as it is, people like the white knights are the first ones to cry when something as important as AC will be gated in a similar fashion behind something that does not follow rules or standards. When in the future the precious new trees will be gated behind trading or no-lifing/botting (like enchantments are now if you people are too blind to realise). Crucial content that make the game fun gated behind alienating, tedious and abnoxious chores.

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Turtledove wrote:

By important, I mean percentage of people that don't find the labyrinth fun. Why people don't find it fun is not important, with one exception that I can think of. That would be if GGG could make a change that makes it fun. My view on that question is that I doubt they could make a change that would make it fun for me. I've seen others that fall into that category. For example, people that say they just see the traps and that is enough for them to hate labyrinth. However, I think some don't like labyrinth because of something that can be fixed. Most notable in this category would be lag issues. These seem to now be more related to client issues. (I assume the server issues have been addressed already.)

The hardcore side is questionable (although I could manage until now), and the optimization side was horrid, true.

What about this change: you can avoid traps given that you take time to search alternate paths (that includes some secret passages) that would be less quick that just going via path with traps. Less dodging, more exploration, but you have to kill Izaro, and you won't pick any trinket to make it easy. Also, there could be some extra risk for taking that path, just in another form (Invasion bosses?).

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

By important, I mean percentage of people that don't find the labyrinth fun. Why people don't find it fun is not important, with one exception that I can think of. That would be if GGG could make a change that makes it fun. My view on that question is that I doubt they could make a change that would make it fun for me. I've seen others that fall into that category. For example, people that say they just see the traps and that is enough for them to hate labyrinth. However, I think some don't like labyrinth because of something that can be fixed. Most notable in this category would be lag issues. These seem to now be more related to client issues. (I assume the server issues have been addressed already.)

The hardcore side is questionable (although I could manage until now), and the optimization side was horrid, true.

What about this change: you can avoid traps given that you take time to search alternate paths (that includes some secret passages) that would be less quick that just going via path with traps. Less dodging, more exploration, but you have to kill Izaro, and you won't pick any trinket to make it easy. Also, there could be some extra risk for taking that path, just in another form (Invasion bosses?).

I can really only answer this question as to my own perspective. Looking up the "daily" labyrinth layout doesn't sound very fun to me. Although I will guess that just means the "high" level layout which is the map made of half a dozen or so circles connected by lines. That might not be too bad. Here's my situation. I decided that I would play a new game rather than play through the labyrinth. I bought XCOM2 and played through that once. I'll play XCOM for probably a few more months. I anticipate that when done playing XCOM2, I'll reconsider playing PoE. (I have been occasionally playing master daily missions and things though.) At that point if more tomb raider content has been added (or crossword puzzles or tetris type games or ;-) ) then it will be easy to recognize that the game I used to love will never be the game for me again. If they make the labyrinth optional (meaning ascendancy points are no longer gated behind labyrinth) then great. Actually if that happened tomorrow I'd probably stop playing XCOM2 as soon as I found that out. If that was not the case then I would try to go through the labyrinth again using the daily labyrinth map. I really am not sure what my gut reaction will be. The two times I tried the labyrinth it was a visceral dislike. It was just tedious and not fun to the point of saying to myself, I don't want to do this anymore.

Killing Izaro is not a problem for me. I haven't ever tried that but I enjoy fighting bosses, although I definitely will not be happy having to go through all the trap stuff again to get back to him when I die. I consider that a bad GGG decision like the death penalty being a bad GGG decision but something I can live with.

I don't mind that we have to grind, really not. I grinded stuff in every league, even the hard ones.

the labyrinth was those 3 steps for me:
- look up the layout for merciless on reddit
- decide (too many gold doors, too long shortest path etc.)
- run labs or maps

I didn't keep record, but doing labyrinths for hours and days and seeing no actual progress is mind-breaking.
I started running labs once I hit 38/40, missing only 5 enchants and one level to zana (hit 7).
getting glove and boots was quick, tho rng could have interfered there too. remaining with curse, trap and totem enchant for helmets it was time to merci lab.

and I was close to quit. Zana lvl 7 was already over 1'000'000 XP when I helped the next dude ascend in merciless and got the last missing enchant. I couldn't for the love of god understand why, but that's how it went.

I really liked two things about perandus league:
- the mobs with their guardians and chests. they brought some change in pace and something to look out for. really fun after the technical issues were gone
- cadiro, that guy had great and really bad offers. if you know your way around, you got pretty good deals now and then.

and I really would wish for anything but the labyrinth in my past. overcoming this obstacle was worse than shrine-challenge or warband leaders, at least those could have happened every* map and you could work together farming the zones (*yeah, those with the prerequisites).

thank you for all the work with the league, you absolutely nailed 2 of 3 features, sadly the one is a biggie.

The only bad part of the labyrinth is getting that one enchantment you want.

Then again, if it was any easier to get it then it would be really too damn strong, because some of those effects are huge.

i hate it... even more than the end boss.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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sil222 wrote:

drops is something completly different. mapping wud be fun if u had to wait 20 seconds after u killed a bunch of mobs because the game doesnt allow u to move any further. just to stop because reasons. got it.

If you have patience for a good drop (that requires mindless grinding), you should have some patience for a trap. The only difference is that the later requires a little (not that much) brain and to stop moving for a few seconds from time to time to avoid stuff. Seriously. For a game that asks so much patience, some people have none.

u forget that in this game u kill mobs for loot. while waiting for that gg item drop u kill mobs, grind exp and maybe play different builds, maps etc. u do NOTHING of that while waiting for traps to go away, there is absolutely no upside to stand there and wait. this is not fun, exciting or anything else than a complete waste of (play)time. no brain required to play around that either, just time.

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sil222 wrote:

u forget that in this game u kill mobs for loot. while waiting for that gg item drop u kill mobs, grind exp and maybe play different builds, maps etc. u do NOTHING of that while waiting for traps to go away, there is absolutely no upside to stand there and wait. this is not fun, exciting or anything else than a complete waste of (play)time. no brain required to play around that either, just time.

I can think of three upsides:

-Ascendancy points
-Enchantments (even if they are insanely grindy to get, specially when you have a high level character and won't benefit)
-Treasure chests at the end if you know what are you doing

Also, your post reduces to "If they don't pay me, I won't like to play" (an then you play dumb with the rewards anyway). As traps don't give you anything directly, you don't want them. You are like that guy at reddit that wanted to save a few second at Lioneye's Watch via this:



So it would be better if traps gave you experience then? Some people consider a waste to kill white mobs in one shot yet they are there. Are rare monsters a time waster then? Currently, there is a thread in General Discussion where people are saying Act IV sucks for the same reasons (time waste with bosses...and unrelated stuff like overly long tilesets and poor palette choices).

By your line of argumentation, Malachai is a time waste too, because he takes too long to kill and there is no upside to him (well, there is, but so for the labyrinth).

I'm fairly tired of that reductionist approach to the game (grind and build). That kind of thinking makes the game shallower in the long run. Seeing shit like this is unnerving.

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Turtledove wrote:

I can really only answer this question as to my own perspective. Looking up the "daily" labyrinth layout doesn't sound very fun to me. Although I will guess that just means the "high" level layout which is the map made of half a dozen or so circles connected by lines. That might not be too bad. Here's my situation. I decided that I would play a new game rather than play through the labyrinth. I bought XCOM2 and played through that once. I'll play XCOM for probably a few more months. I anticipate that when done playing XCOM2, I'll reconsider playing PoE. (I have been occasionally playing master daily missions and things though.) At that point if more tomb raider content has been added (or crossword puzzles or tetris type games or ;-) ) then it will be easy to recognize that the game I used to love will never be the game for me again. If they make the labyrinth optional (meaning ascendancy points are no longer gated behind labyrinth) then great. Actually if that happened tomorrow I'd probably stop playing XCOM2 as soon as I found that out. If that was not the case then I would try to go through the labyrinth again using the daily labyrinth map. I really am not sure what my gut reaction will be. The two times I tried the labyrinth it was a visceral dislike. It was just tedious and not fun to the point of saying to myself, I don't want to do this anymore.

Killing Izaro is not a problem for me. I haven't ever tried that but I enjoy fighting bosses, although I definitely will not be happy having to go through all the trap stuff again to get back to him when I die. I consider that a bad GGG decision like the death penalty being a bad GGG decision but something I can live with.

I decided to take a break from XCOM last night because I miss playing PoE. So I fired PoE up last night. I played a new character up to about level 30. I decided to try labyrinth again. I tried to look up the daily labyrinth map but there wasn't one. I guess when the master daily missions are reset is when the labyrinth is reset? Anyway, the labyrinth daily layout wasn't available. So much for that part of the plan. I went in anyway. I wandered around painfully for about a half hour and finally made it to Izaro. My character didn't die but it really was a very boring half hour that was not at all fun for me. In this first Izaro fight my character was lagging real bad and I died because I couldn't move him properly. I just couldn't deal with another painful pass through the labyrinth and gave up on this horrible un-fun content, again. I have to hand it to GGG though. GGG has managed to produce content that is both very frustrating and very boring, which is a rather unique combination!

I totally agree, the lab is perhaps the worst expansion content ever. The ascendancy classes are amazing, but going through the lab is like getting a root canal.

First of all, the idea that the game is now optimized to handle the tight spaces and many moving parts of the lab is simply fantasy. Whether you use lock-step or predictive, it does not matter, nothing demonstrates the lack of optimization in POE like a desynchronized jaunt through the lab.

Secondly, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that players of this game don't like time consuming, maze-like areas. Just look at which maps players prefer to run: Plateau, gorge, etc., it's quite obvious, even to a total poe nub, that the maps that are open and linear are the best. Which are the worst? Obviously the most maze-like and time consuming. Amazingly, one of the only maps that got a reboot this last patch was abandoned cavern which would probably be well received if anyone actually played that map. What's worse is you eliminated the old boss of that area that was actually slightly dangerous and replaced him with a boss that is even easier to deal with than the drought maddened rhoa in arid lake. This couldn't have happened by accident, I am sure it took great effort to design a boss that is less of a threat than a charging rhoa.

Finally, the rewards for completing the lab are so lack luster it hurts. I don't mean the ascendancy points, because of course those are great. I am talking about all the subsequent runs that GGG imagines we will be doing for enchants. I saw one enchant that read something like "increased elemental resistance on ice golem" - just why the hell does this even exist as a mod? In fact, the vast majority of enchants will be useless to most players, and the likelihood of getting the specific mod you are looking for is ridiculously small. On the other hand, some of them are so unnecessarily over powered, like "25% increased damage of bladefall". Yeah, because bladefall is so lacking in the dps dept.

As someone who really loves POE, I would implore you devs to actually try the game out, get to know the meta, mingle with the peeps, join some pub mapping groups. I am sure anyone who has been playing this game for even a month could give you a laundry list of things that need fixing before new content gets added. The best advice I could give to you is to just look to the players and the content they prefer to run, and give us more content like that.