I still think map drops are fine - boost drops and good players can do 79++ all day long

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MatrixFactor wrote:

You have several L100 characters in standard and legacy gear. Yet you don't understand that 78s can roll just as dangerously as 82s?

Actually, they can't.

LowMap(68-73), MidMap(74-78), HighMap(79-82)

New map mods are in 3 tiers, not only do the mods get more difficult themselves per tier, but they can also stack with mods similar to themselves that they couldn't stack with in the previous tier.

Let's look at the recently introduced 'of deadliness' mod.

LowMap
Monsters have (160 to 200)% increased Critical Strike Chance
Monsters have 25% increased Critical Strike Multiplier

MidMap
Monsters have (260 to 300)% increased Critical Strike Chance
Monsters have 30% increased Critical Strike Multiplier

HighMap
Monsters have (360 to 400)% increased Critical Strike Chance
Monsters have 35% increased Critical Strike Multiplier

Although, the triple stacking extra as [element] each double the size of the single mod that can't stack in lower maps that I gave earlier was example enough.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

I'm comparing 77 and 82. White 82 mobs do 16% more damage than white 77 mobs. Source.

Notice I said that the difference isn't noticeable if you have a good build. If you have a build that takes 5 hits to kill 68 monsters and 8 hits to kill 76 monsters, then obviously you'll notice the difference. If you clear at or almost at movespeed (i.e. 1-2 hits) then you won't notice. For example when I do Oba's Cursed Trove, which has multiple floors of successively higher levels (73-79) of about the same size, the time I spend per each level is within 10-15% of the 73 level.

That's just damage, not life. Not to mention map mods, for example.

And why are you fixated on 82-77 comparison? People are not complaining because they can't chain 82nd lvl maps. Every single one of you guys is coming with that premise, a false premise, even though people have been writing in fluid English. So what's your issue then? Why?


You keep saying good build, but it's clear that you mean a super expensive build. I have a good build on Warbands and I've told you the difference between 75 and 72 maps.


So again, please.

OMG, I missed this

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

If you don't want to play ARPGs with fun economies you can play Torchlight, Diablo, Skyrim, Borderlands, Fallout. You have a huge selection of great games of different flavors that ignore economy. What options do I have to play a great economy-based ARPG?

Is it really simple binary to you or did you jump on that not realising how silly it is?

Is this where I reply with 'go play Ebay'?

@MatrixFactor

Not being adversarial here, but I'd like to ask you to plainly state your argument. Folks are asking for the ability to get 77-78 maps to drop more. Do you agree or disagree with this? If you disagree, then why, specifically, would it be bad for the game if players chained 77-78 maps when they're sinking the currency to do so?

I'm asking this because the rest of this discussion has become people sniping each other over minor points that are only peripherally relevant to what this thread is actually about. And I'm basically confused as to where, precisely, you and others actually stand because I can't follow all the back-and-forth.

I'd also like to say I agree that 80+ maps should indeed be rare, and from what I've read it doesn't seem like many people are arguing otherwise.

Anuhart, highmaps are going to be rolled with more respect than midmaps since it's correct to spend more chaos rolling them. You're going to do harder moded 77-78s since you vaal them compared to chaosed 81-82. Also deadliness is 13% more damage for midmaps and 18% more damage for highmaps. Now multiply everything together and 81-82 maps are maybe 30-40% more damage than 77-78s. That's fine, use enfeeble instead of elemental weakness. Use vaal grace instead of vaal haste. Since 1x81=5x77 in terms of exp, you can afford to clear it 2x slower. Adapt, take advantage of all the game mechanics you can.

Also "play Ebay?" I'm talking about ARPGs. I specifically named 5+ games that are great ARPGs, but I find them boring because there is no multiplayer economy. PoE is in a unique position, and you want that removed to fulfill your personal desires? You can play the other games or just play self-found.

tinko: I checked your profile. You're playing non-crit 1h cyclone with something like 20k armor, and 200% life. Meanwhile you're complaining about DPS. Go 2h or go crit or put on an abyssus. Or play CoC (bow, cyclone, wand), bow (tshot, split arrow, poison arrow), summoner (SRS, hybrid), melee (cyclone, reave, ice crash, facebreaker). All of these builds can clear faster on a 5L than your tank. And you actually have good gear, so no idea what the point about "expensive" builds is.

demon: my argument is that when the game is harder it rewards people for studying it and improving at it. Making the game easier would make PoE more like the other "solo" flavored ARPGs, and would take away what I think is best about this game.

IMO you can already chain 77-78 maps if you can run them vaaled. People complaining about having trouble sustaining 75-76 really have no clue what they're doing, and I'm trying to let them know that.

@MatrixFactor

Your entire premise is wrong. 79+ maps are more difficult than 78 maps. Your own comment about how you wouldn't vaal a 79+ map proves this. The fact that you can cherry pick ez mode mods on an 82 map and difficult mods on a 78 map does not mean that 78 maps are as difficult as 82 maps. End of discussion.

"

tackle70 wrote:

@MatrixFactor

Your entire premise is wrong. 79+ maps are more difficult than 78 maps. Your own comment about how you wouldn't vaal a 79+ map proves this. The fact that you can cherry pick ez mode mods on an 82 map and difficult mods on a 78 map does not mean that 78 maps are as difficult as 82 maps. End of discussion.

Apex of Sacrifice costs 8c on Warbands, and a 79 map costs 14-16c. So if you really want difficult content why not just run apex of sacrifice? Or vaal your 75s. You'll get temp chains, -max, +elem damage eventually. How is that not going to be harder than a 79 that you roll with chaos to your own specifications?

People who want to run 79+ maps want to do it for the better loot, and experience. 79+ maps aren't rolled to make them difficult, whereas 75-78 are. That's because rolling 79+ badly is wrong (see OPs posts on pages 14-18). Like it's wrong to call an all in pre-flop with 75o. Bad players might still do it, but good players won't, and a game that doesn't punish bad decisions is a boring game IMO.

None of that changes the fact that 79+ maps are more difficult than < 79 maps.

Wait, when did I want your ebayplay removed?

I just don't want it to gate content. I understand a lot of people love economies in games, similarly some people like roll playing in games. I'm fine with the existence of many elements in RPGs, but if in order to progress, access challenging content and slay nastier, tougher beasties, I was required to attend 3 vampire turkey meetings, ascend to a high rank in Wraeclat People's Front, get 3,000 public likes on my back story, walk everywhere not run (if I could) and never speak out of character without prefixing the text with [OOC] : I'm gonna be a little pissed as a non - roll player.

I'm completely fine, however, with people role playing in games. I'm completely fine with people economy simming in games, cool. I like to kill beasties in games and don't like that gated behind things I don't care for but don't want to deny those that do.

I think there's a communication issue between GGG and the players. It seems that players see the map pool goes up to L80 and expects to farm however high the map pool goes, but GGG's intent with the highest tier was not to increase how far players could farm, but instead something else. This is only an extrapolation from the drop rates, nothing else in the game indicates GGG's intention in such a way.

Maybe if GGG gave these maps some tells that they are different- such as a different icon/text color, inventory size, and different naming scheme- then it would be clearer that players are supposed to think of them differently (specifically, as being less farmable than the lower maps). If players were expecting L81 maps to be a rare activity then the lack of ability to constantly run them at that level would not be a problem. The question is, how does GGG send the signal that something is supposed to be rare, when they do have an activity that they only want players to participate in rarely?