Petition to un-nerf revenants

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

a skill needs to stand on its own prior to anything else , otherwise what is stopping someone from using a skill that does actually stand on its own.

While the core point of this stands, a skill can be balanced with a single curse in mind, since every character is capable of using at least one curse.

But when it comes to balancing a summoner oriented skill, different rules apply then the general plethora of skills, this should be obvious, given that you currently can make a summoner build that is "completed" at lvl 80.(decent ehp levels and all summoner perks taken)

The same simply doesn't hold true for a "stand alone" character.

The good thing about awakening for summoners has been the potential past that lvl 80 marker.

jewels/aura's/curses etc, some options have been created, but all equally improve upon the core concept of the build. Pushing your summons past there intended balanced skill gem markers.

What your saying is, balance around this core gem skill level power, which would automatically result in broken situations when jewels etc come into play.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : also your point loses merit if all "minion" tagged skills are balanced under the same assumption.(additional off-gem power increases past lvl 80, that is)

not really

there will always be a nebulous base level of power one can work off of . that is how we knew revs were going to get nerfs , since they were clearly way above this.

deep in the back of all our minds we have a pretty good understanding of what feels too good or too bad.

and that is how we choose skills.

And the skills that people tend to choose are the ones that feel the most powerful on their own.


i am not quite discounting the idea that some skills need work in conjunction with other skills, after all i am a summoner . zombies are clearly meant to be used with other minions around

but im not going to use a skill that needs another skill to function , when i know of a skill that doesnt need that other skill and still functions.

and that is what we have here.



they simply over did the nerf to reveneants , nothing more , nothing less.

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Boem wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

a skill needs to stand on its own prior to anything else , otherwise what is stopping someone from using a skill that does actually stand on its own.

While the core point of this stands, a skill can be balanced with a single curse in mind, since every character is capable of using at least one curse.

But when it comes to balancing a summoner oriented skill, different rules apply then the general plethora of skills, this should be obvious, given that you currently can make a summoner build that is "completed" at lvl 80.(decent ehp levels and all summoner perks taken)

The same simply doesn't hold true for a "stand alone" character.

The good thing about awakening for summoners has been the potential past that lvl 80 marker.

jewels/aura's/curses etc, some options have been created, but all equally improve upon the core concept of the build. Pushing your summons past there intended balanced skill gem markers.

What your saying is, balance around this core gem skill level power, which would automatically result in broken situations when jewels etc come into play.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : also your point loses merit if all "minion" tagged skills are balanced under the same assumption.(additional off-gem power increases past lvl 80, that is)

There!

That's what I've been saying, with the new nods for curses, and the Jewels newly added the summoners never have been so strong in the game before 2.0.0 And even after the nerf on stygians the summoners are still way stronger than before.

what do you mean , jewels were introduced and they DID break summoner balance

the gems weren't balanced for it exactly because they were built to stand on their own without the jewels.

i have been saying this since long before revenants were in the picture.


you cant expect something that is accustomed to hitting its limit at 150% damage , then increase it to 250% and expect things to be super happy fun times.

jewels were power creep . they have made summoners too potent in some areas. hell they have made all builds extremely potent in certain areas.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

what do you mean , jewels were introduced and they DID break summoner balance

I mean I had 4 sockets with jewels that gave + 15% dmg for minions. Also I think you can give them hp, chance of block, elemental resistance (wich it seriously interesting) and others stuff. The jewels are a really strong tool for summoners. Also I don't know if you have notice but the passives nods for curses have been boosted a bit wich can make your offense really strong with a dual curse. (but I prefer using them as protection in hardcore Temp chain is op with enfeeble) There are a lot of tool to make your summoner viable and stronger then ever.

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diablofdb wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

what do you mean , jewels were introduced and they DID break summoner balance

I mean I had 4 sockets with jewels that gave + 15% dmg for minions. Also I think you can give them hp, chance of block, elemental resistance (wich it seriously interesting) and others stuff. The jewels are a really strong tool for summoners. Also I don't know if you have notice but the passives nods for curses have been boosted a bit wich can make your offense really strong with a dual curse. (but I prefer using them as protection in hardcore Temp chain is op with enfeeble)

but that is irrelevant. i dont care about curses . the revenants arent curses.

the curses are independent of the revenants , i can drop revenants today and the curses will still be around doing their shit.

stop using other mechanics to justify a targeted nerf of the revenants

Your point and this thread would hold a lot more merit if there wasn't a bunch of threads already created from non-summoners stating revenants where simply shredding them in high content maps though with extremely high defensive builds.

So one has to wonder, there are no threads about flame sentinels, yet they make excellent spectres.

There are no threads about lantern bro's, yet they make fine spectres.

Granted there where threads about knitted horrors, mostly oriented around there high hp value's in top-end content and some mentioning high degens with added damage modifiers.(the puncture)

Given past experiences with GGG balancing, the pendulum might in fact have swung to hard to the other side, but nothing prevents it from swinging again in the near future.

It's probably back to data collecting at this point in time to see if people can make them work with the current value's.

Balance like always is a natural evolving state which isn't impervious to flaws.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : also his point about curses stands. If you don't like to read "curse" then replace "curse" with "jewel" or "aura effectiveness" since they are basically different sides of the same coin. External power boosting of "minion" related skill gems.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

a skill needs to stand on its own prior to anything else , otherwise what is stopping someone from using a skill that does actually stand on its own.

I don't see how this rule would apply in general, how does Discharge stand on its own, or Righteous Fire, for example? There are many interesting skills in the game that require support from other skills and items and keystones to reach reasonable potential.

Also, Raise Spectre is more comparable to an aura or herald than to a main attack skill, in the way it is used as part of preparation, not in combat. As such, it shouldn't be expected to do much in itself, just like auras.
Your "main damage" comes from actively buffing and debuffing in combat, those are the buttons you press, not Raise Spectre.

What's stopping people is that it's impossible to maintain dps on a standalone skill while committing the resources to get the powerful supportive tools that summoner has, and the casting time to trigger their effect.

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Boem wrote:

Your point and this thread would hold a lot more merit if there wasn't a bunch of threads already created from non-summoners stating revenants where simply shredding them in high content maps though with extremely high defensive builds.

So one has to wonder, there are no threads about flame sentinels, yet they make excellent spectres.

There are no threads about lantern bro's, yet they make fine spectres.

Granted there where threads about knitted horrors, mostly oriented around there high hp value's in top-end content and some mentioning high degens with added damage modifiers.(the puncture)

Given past experiences with GGG balancing, the pendulum might in fact have swung to hard to the other side, but nothing prevents it from swinging again in the near future.

It's probably back to data collecting at this point in time to see if people can make them work with the current value's.

Balance like always is a natural evolving state which isn't impervious to flaws.

Peace,

-Boem-

i am not saying they didn't need a nerf boem , i have already stated many times I and most of the summoner community expected a nerf.

Their reasons were good (even if the way they expressed them was shit) their method was flawed.

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diablofdb wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

Dude you didn't understand a single word of what I just said.

Chipmunk where are you show this guy what I meant before I lash out on him.

*shakes head make me ashamed your one of us ''summoners'' if you couldn't understand the problem of the ''nerf''

You are way over reacting over a simple patch, summoners are still very strong and more than viable end game

-Peace

That is entirely not the point.

Revenants did a few simple things:

1. They provided a lightning base spectre that is actual useful. Evangelists and Horrors are good because they deal physical damage and make cursing and auras easy. A Lightning based spectre means thinking about CoH-setups and EE and made Hatred less of a no-brainer.

2. They also removed one of the highest to get spectres out of maps. Evangelists are incredible if you find them in a 70+ map... using the ones in upper sceptre though is terrible... and just as a troll they added aristocrats to Harvest but not evangelists (at least I was unable to summon them with desecrate). They were propably one of the best spectres to just hop into maps even if you do not plan into using them.

3. The viability of spectres is basically limited by "is the spectre avaible in Act 4". This means Lantern Bearers (which sadly are not that durable), Horrors (which are a pain to summon since you have to "find" them first) and the few good invasion-mobs you might get. Sentinels are cool... but lvl66? The same goes for a wide range of other spectres like Tentacle Miscreations. You can find some of them randomly as invasion-mobs in other areas... but that often needs a few reloads of the area. So Revenants provided a nice bridge into getting a better spectre in maps. If you want Sentinels then use Revenants until you find them in maps, same for evangelists.


I assume the patch-note is actually a troll

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Stygian Revenants now fire three lightning projectiles (down from five), and deal 30% less damage with them. Their revived minions now explode for 20% less damage. These monsters were extremely efficient at killing players. This purpose of this change is to prevent mass extinction of exiles, rather than to nerf them as spectres.

Well that sounds like a troll and actually I felt they were really easy. However they have one issue, they basically do "shotgun" not in the correct mechanical way but their barrage can hit with multiple projectiles which likely provides an issue for melees. They should however make it an actual multiprojectile spell and increase the damage, since Revenants provide a very clear example why shotgunning had to be removed. Even if you use them as Spectres you notice how devastating they are if multiple projectiles hit the same target and how weak they feel if that is not the case.

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they simply over did the nerf to reveneants , nothing more , nothing less.

I would say that they didn't really identify the problematic with revenants. I still feel removing shotgunning and adding a mechanic back in that basically does the same thing is odd. They did this with the Mortars from Malachai and Doedre and they did this with Revenants. If there is an enemy attack that allows rapid hits to connect with the player in certain situations (while being melee in the case of revenants) means that either the individual hits are incredible weak or the combined damage of those hits are overwhelming.