A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

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Sinzeek wrote:

This change doesn't make any sense to me, EB as it currently is converts all your ES into Mana and gives you a huge manapool, its simple and elegant mechanic.. and it works!

This change looks awful and makes no sense to me.

The problem is the big mana pool. A giant mana pool means high mana/sec. Since AA and MoM both exist, just by getting EB you can take AA and MoM (or use a Cloak) and there's no real cost or investment on the part of your character. There's no decision there, it's just better to use them since you can. With this change, you still get a big pool to cast spells but you can't just run AA (without investment) and MoM is no longer a as appealing of a defense mechanic.

As for why GGG doesn't just change AA or MoM, they have and the only effect was that no other builds can now use AA (it's nearly impossible to get that much mana/sec without EB) and MoM is lackluster compared to other options.

This change is nice because it keeps the intended mechanic, giving spell casters more resource to use without giving them instant access to power defense mechanics. Also it eventually, they can move the MoM keystone towards the top of the tree where thematically it makes sense (not a gameplay reason, but I like it anyways).

I'd have to say I have a mixed feeling about this. It is nice because you can probably reserve 100% of your mana and still have the "ES" mana to use. But at the same time one of the big things you get for using this, and usually the main reason why I would think people do it, is not only to have more mana, but also because it gives you a massive jump in your mana regain rate...

Simple solution, just have 2 keystones: with the original EB right behind the keystone which 'converts energy shield into mana shield'

then EB after this keystone will just be 'converts mana shield into mana'.

Not only will this conserve the current builds, but also opens up new variety.

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Apocoliptik wrote:

I'd have to say I have a mixed feeling about this. It is nice because you can probably reserve 100% of your mana and still have the "ES" mana to use. But at the same time one of the big things you get for using this, and usually the main reason why I would think people do it, is not only to have more mana, but also because it gives you a massive jump in your mana regain rate...

But the massive mana regen rate is the problem. I'm running raiQT's RF Incinerator right now and I have 187 mana/sec with just EB, and two skill points in mana and mana/sec that didn't also give me life or life regen. It took me 8 skill points (including travel), with 3 pieces of equipment that have mana regen and I can run a level 17 AA. There are literally no other builds that can use this gem right now, the cost is too high and I can do it with about the same investment that someone other builds have to just accept as travel nodes. And most builds couldn't even run a level 5 AA only sometimes.

GGG can take out the gem but since AA is the main defensive mechanic for several builds, seems like something they're unwilling to do. Instead they decided to change the mechanics of EB so that you don't get a massive mana regen but can still draw from a large pool of "mana" to spell cast. It frees them to rebalance the mana degen of AA so that more builds can run it (with some investment).

As for MoM interactionss with that high of a mana/sec there is effectively no cost to using it since even if you take a hit that completely drains all of your mana, you can still spell cast almost instantly since you're mana/sec is that high. You've basically gotten a true 30% damage reduction and it costs you maybe half a second of dealing damage.

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imcalledtyler wrote:

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Apocoliptik wrote:

I'd have to say I have a mixed feeling about this. It is nice because you can probably reserve 100% of your mana and still have the "ES" mana to use. But at the same time one of the big things you get for using this, and usually the main reason why I would think people do it, is not only to have more mana, but also because it gives you a massive jump in your mana regain rate...

But the massive mana regen rate is the problem. I'm running raiQT's RF Incinerator right now and I have 187 mana/sec with just EB, and two skill points in mana and mana/sec that didn't also give me life or life regen. It took me 8 skill points (including travel), with 3 pieces of equipment that have mana regen and I can run a level 17 AA. There are literally no other builds that can use this gem right now, the cost is too high and I can do it with about the same investment that someone other builds have to just accept as travel nodes. And most builds couldn't even run a level 5 AA only sometimes.

GGG can take out the gem but since AA is the main defensive mechanic for several builds, seems like something they're unwilling to do. Instead they decided to change the mechanics of EB so that you don't get a massive mana regen but can still draw from a large pool of "mana" to spell cast. It frees them to rebalance the mana degen of AA so that more builds can run it (with some investment).

As for MoM interactionss with that high of a mana/sec there is effectively no cost to using it since even if you take a hit that completely drains all of your mana, you can still spell cast almost instantly since you're mana/sec is that high. You've basically gotten a true 30% damage reduction and it costs you maybe half a second of dealing damage.

187? That's it, should should have over 400! My guy is 425, even with that...running AA/CoD/Incinerate, I will still go OOM on tuff fights like Trio/Death and Taxes/Poorjoys Asylum/ etc So no, I disagree, effective against utter shit mobs yes, against harder things no! And it takes a lot more investment than that, not to mention you need maximum mana on gear, mana regen on gear, for it even to be effective to a degree of "we should step in" ...basically you need to get everything aligned, which doesn't happen over a short period...187 is nothing, wouldn't even use a CoD with just 187, almost anything would take you oom....not to mention sustaining incinerate would eat that alive!

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justinmm1988 wrote:

187? That's it, should should have over 400! My guy is 425, even with that...running AA/CoD/Incinerate, I will still go OOM on tuff fights like Trio/Death and Taxes/Poorjoys Asylum/ etc So no, I disagree, effective against utter shit mobs yes, against harder things no! And it takes a lot more investment than that, not to mention you need maximum mana on gear, mana regen on gear, for it even to be effective to a degree of "we should step in" ...basically you need to get everything aligned, which doesn't happen over a short period...187 is nothing, wouldn't even use a CoD with just 187, almost anything would take you oom....not to mention sustaining incinerate would eat that alive!

I'm using an elreon's for the mana cost. I'm doing a budget version and I'm not running a cloak. Instead I just have Cwdt with frost wall and molten shell. It's not ideal but I'm too lazy to invest in getting better gear etc. It's the race standard league so I wasn't too motivated. But even with just what I have I'm level 80 and can do low level maps. The build works, not well but it works. Sure I can't currently do any map over 70 but with more effort I could and it would be far less effort that some other builds.

Also those maps are meant to be hard, they're supposed to push the limits of builds. People are supposed to go OOM during hard fights, so I don't think that it occurring means that the build/mechanic doesn't need a nerf.

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elitedesolator wrote:

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Whoaness wrote:

I really don't see EB viable for anything now. It's just forcing huge drawbacks on life regen/leech.

Bit soon to say mate.

Here, two more things you can think about:

1. EB + CI
2. EB + Low Life

Uuuh what bro? 1 effective health pool is something you shouldn't even think about.

This change will absolutely make no difference to how suicidal is CI+EB, and same for low life.

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Rory wrote:

More background: This change has an interesting history; I suggested it offhand as a strange idea, but it solved a few key factors we were investigating, like AA/MoM defense being too high for too low a cost........

Ok, you said you want to here our thoughts here are mine.
This is the most ridiculous change possible. I dropped AA/MoM a few month ago because the damage mitigration is just a sad joke compared to other dmg mitigration methods. If you guys still think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost you really have no idea what's going on in your game. AA provides almost no protection for a shitload of manareg. If you get a BIG hit from let's say vaal or dominus there is almost no difference between getting this hit with or without AA. And MoM is horrible too. Most people use between 2 and 3 auras means they don't have a big amout of mana left (many only 800-1500). Now if these poor folks get a big hit their mana went to zero and it does not even take away 40% of that hit and that for the "low price" of being unable to cast & therefore leech for some time or maybe loose their incinerate stages and other nice things. As I said before if you really think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost sorry then you don't know anything about your own game!

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666lol666 wrote:

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Rory wrote:

More background: This change has an interesting history; I suggested it offhand as a strange idea, but it solved a few key factors we were investigating, like AA/MoM defense being too high for too low a cost........

Ok, you said you want to here our thoughts here are mine.
This is the most ridiculous change possible. I dropped AA/MoM a few month ago because the damage mitigration is just a sad joke compared to other dmg mitigration methods. If you guys still think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost you really have no idea what's going on in your game. AA provides almost no protection for a shitload of manareg. If you get a BIG hit from let's say vaal or dominus there is almost no difference between getting this hit with or without AA. And MoM is horrible too. Most people use between 2 and 3 auras means they don't have a big amout of mana left (many only 800-1500). Now if these poor folks get a big hit their mana went to zero and it does not even take away 40% of that hit and that for the "low price" of being unable to cast & therefore leech for some time or maybe loose their incinerate stages and other nice things. As I said before if you really think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost sorry then you don't know anything about your own game!

The point with Vaal smash and dom's touch is that you're not really supposed to take the hit from them, it's why those attacks have such a long build up time. If you get hit by them you should take a penalty. And not instantly dying is pretty powerful I'd say. Also with 800-1500 unreserved mana with on auras/ heralds, your mana regen even with AA is going to cap you off on mana in all of 2 seconds. Yeah, you lose incinerate stages or other nice things but most builds if they survive would at least have to pop a flask or something. That's pretty powerful if you ask me.

well, lol, dont hold back will you mate :D


strongly worded but I think your appraisal of the power given by MoM+AA is spot on personally. If they wanted to hit MoM a bit, drop it to 20% for example then yeah, I could get along with that. But Ive played the shit out of this game, 100s upon 100s of hours spent playing each different form of mitigation, Ive done them on rag tag self found bullshit rigs, Ive done them with 200+ exalt setups that perform at 90%+ effectiveness of a literally perfect, impossible gear setup and my thoughts on COD+AA is that its something I would do if I had to. Thats where I feel like its pervasive nature comes from, necessity and the appeal of spells damage scaling. CI, Coil Evasion, Hybrid Armour Evasion, Armour Block, Aegis Block, even hybrid Life ES, full Evasion or full Armour Endurance, Id pick any of them over MoM+AA if I had the choice, you just dont have the choice when you are playing a top locked caster, its a bloody struggle to even get a strong amount of life up there, never mind find a way to spec a superior form of defense that requires investment on the opposite side of the tree.


I wouldnt be looking at MoM AA and thinking this needs to stop, Id be looking at the popularity of Cloak Of Defiance and thinking it needs to stop. If MoM is too strong to live in the caster tree then nerf it, the actual node, to the point where its ok to give people access to it. The ramifications of such a fundamental change to the nature of EB are vast, vast beyond I think anyones understanding of the build game, MoM+AA combo is no more than a chapter in the book of EB.